E.144 | SxS | Susan Morgan Taylor | FINAL
[00:00:00]
Introduction: The Real Reason Desire Fades
Willow: All right, so if you think that low sex drive is the problem to your relationship, think again. The real reason, desire fades has nothing to do with attraction and everything to do with something so much deeper. And today, Susan Taylor is going to enlighten us on her proprietary process, which will really bring that passion and that spark back to life no matter how long you've been together.
Announcer: Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.
Willow: Welcome Susan.
Susan: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited about our conversation today and really excited to talk about this topic around, uh, yeah, the low desire, which I think there's such a myth around that and so much misunderstanding, so I'm really happy we're gonna shed some light on that today for your listeners.
Debunking Myths: High Desire vs. Low Desire
Willow: What, what do you think is like the number one myth that really, you know, blocks [00:01:00] people and gets people, you know, disconnected from each other?
Susan: Sure. Well, there's the myth of the high desire, low desire. We hear that all the time.
Willow: the disparity between usually male and female men
Susan: you, yeah. If we're gonna be stereotypical, and it's usually, you know, clinically we call that desire discrepancy, but out there you'll hear it as mismatched libido and, and sort of that stereotypical role. Women are often.
Sort of cornered into this place of being the low libido partner while the man is the high libido partner. And so there's this whole conversation around a lot of times what it ends up looking like is how do you get that lower libido labeled partner to match the level of the high libido partners? So that becomes the whole conversation or sometimes
the opposite can happen. I've had, uh, worked with clients where the man felt he had to shut down his desire because he was so tired of being rejected and he felt terrible and guilty and like, I'm just too much for my partner, so I'm gonna just to, you know, manage this, to cope with this. I'm just gonna shut it down.
And neither of these are really the effective strategy. So the whole [00:02:00] conversation, I think around high desire, low desire, we need to like, reframe that completely and have a completely new paradigm for looking at what's actually going on.
Willow: So
Leah: I,
Willow: how we
Susan: Yeah.
Leah: yes. Give us the reframe.
Willow: Yes.
Susan: happening?
Understanding Pleasure Pathways
Susan: Well, so there's really three, three roots to this problem, how I see it.
Like three causes of what? What creates this desire discrepancy. And one of the main ones is a lack of, a lack of connection to our direct pleasure pathways. So the inability to actually access our own desire and our own pleasure. So there's a whole lot of things that really. That feed into that. This is one of the things that I help my couples with at my couples retreats that are the pleasure keys, which I know we're gonna talk about Pleasure keys today, but really helping couples be able to actually come into their own bodies and being able to access what's called direct pleasure.
So we have two pathways in our bodies that we experience pleasure. There's the direct route and the indirect route. And what tends to happen a lot is we get overly dependent on the indirect route, and that can cause. All [00:03:00] kinds of challenges. So the indirect route is like, if I see my partner having a, a good time, then I get enjoyment out of that.
Um, the use of pornography, for example, is another form of indirect pleasure. It's coming through the, the visual cortex into the brain, and then we get aroused from that, or we experience enjoyment from that indirect route. So there's nothing inherently wrong or bad about this. We want access to that pathway as well.
But where it starts to cause problems is when one partner is unable to really be able to enjoy intimacy unless the other person is, for example, producing a certain response or a certain reaction, or if they're wanting the thing that the other person is doing at the same time, the other person's wanting it creates all kinds of discord and disharmony.
And it can also lead to, um to people pleasing where one person maybe feels like they have to produce an orgasm. Oh gosh, I have to act like I'm liking this, so that he has a good time. But it also can create a real disconnect in, in our stereotypical couple, we'll [00:04:00] just say with the woman being the one who's maybe just kind of going along with things, um, that inability to actually contact what she wants and what feels good for her.
She thinks that she's doing everything he wants, but then he thinks he's doing everything for her to try to get her to have a good time when there's all these wires crossed.
Leah: All these missed marks. I imagine it leads to a lot of, um, mind reading, which can be so frustrating trying to guess and maneuver and do all these things that you hope will work.
Leah: But people have a hard time communicating to really find out what works and what doesn't, or being honest about what's working and doesn't
The Role of Communication in Desire
Susan: Well that happens too. And really at the core of this dynamic is the not asking for what you want. And there's a lot of reasons to that. Like maybe, I don't know, because I've been, so, yeah, I've been so like obsessed with making sure my partner's happy and everyone else is happy that I have no fricking idea what I want or what I like.
So there's that aspect. Um, so to know what you want, but then the next piece is there's so many obstacles to [00:05:00] asking for what we want.
Willow: Mm.
Leah: totally.
Susan: At the root of that is really, it comes down to fear, right? There's fear, I'm gonna be too much, I'm gonna be rejected. Uh, what if my partner doesn't wanna shame? So many roots to that.
So the core of that is knowing how to know what I want. And to do that we have to have access to that direct pathway. And the direct pathway is just the direct, um, from stimulation to the nerve endings on the skin up to the brain, having access to that. And it's remarkable how shut off many of us are from.
That from our ability to really access that direct route, and there's a whole host of reasons for that.
Willow: Yes. So many reasons, like societal pressures
Pressure construct.
limiting beliefs that we learned from parents, from
Susan: Yes.
Willow: all
Leah: Yeah. I imagine shame
Willow: Blocks
Leah: like a huge obstacle in all of this.
Susan: Sure. Like how many of us as kids, I mean, you know, I remember being a kid and getting curious about my body and being sort of, you know, my mom giving me the sideways [00:06:00] glance, like, what are you doing? And so, you know, that builds in just at a very young age. The shame is built in. And then, you know, as women, we're not supposed to be too sexy, right?
So we have a lot of slut shaming. And then I think men also, they get the boner shame, right? They're shamed for being too sexual and, right. And so there, so it goes both ways and it really, um, can cause us to shut down from that ability to celebrate our bodies and really to access our own pleasure and celebrate our own desire to the extent that what we'll end up doing instead, there's, I mean, we could have a whole podcast episode of what do we do instead of ask for what we want?
But a lot of times what I see as I work with my couples is they'll put that desire on the other person and, Hey, do you want X, Y, Z? Do you want this? Right? Instead of like, Hey, I would like this. What do you think? Are you willing, not willing, we'll put it on the other person. Like, Hey, is this something you try to sneakily get it?
Willow: if they're putting that desire
Leah: desire on the other
Willow: and the other person is like not picking up what they're laying down, then there often is
is
sort of [00:07:00] like, well then they must not be attracted to me or they must not love me, or they, you know, they start to make up more
more ideas around that.
you speak to that a bit?
Susan: Yeah, absolutely. We put all kinds of meaning on it. When, when what we're really doing is displacing our desire into somebody else. Hey, do you want this thing? And if that person says, no, I, I don't want it, then right? We make it mean that, okay, well if they don't
Leah: I'm never gonna
Susan: I'm too, I'm never gonna get it.
Or I'm too much. Or She doesn't love me, she doesn't want me, I'm not desired when really. What needs to happen instead is a direct, uh, really what I call clarity. So, so much of this conversation is really about how do we create clarity in the intimate relationship. And a lot of that begins with communication.
But we can't have clarity if we're not clear around what is my, what am I wanting and is this moment, who is this moment for? So that's sort of the next, uh, I said there was three things. The next piece is really identifying who is this happening for? Because if I don't know, if I'm not owning my own desire and I'm putting it on someone [00:08:00] else, then, and uh, now there's a whole bunch of things potentially that are happening that maybe nobody wants to have happen at all.
And I can give a great
Leah: Yeah, what's an example?
Susan: So I love this one 'cause I see this happen all the time around oral sex for some reasons. Uh, in particular, and I had a, a couple that came to me and they were having just, every time they would go to be intimate, it would just end what I call a train wreck. Right? Like something would go south, they'd say, forget it.
And they would just, they got to the point where they were avoiding having sex, avoiding intimacy because there was so much anxiety that it wasn't gonna go well. Well come to find out, one of the things that was happening was he was going down on her. Giving her oral sex just because he kind of thought like, well, I mean, I guess that's just like the next thing to do.
And in her head she never, like, oral sex just wasn't really her thing. Like she didn't really get a lot of pleasure out of it. But she also felt two things. Number one, she felt like she should be enjoying it because there's sort of this idea that you're supposed to, like oral sex. A lot of women orgasm that way.
She was not [00:09:00] one of them. Um, so for her it was like, I don't, I mean. So she was trying to make herself like the thing, and she also was trying to make it look like she liked it, so he would feel like.
Willow: feel good
Leah: right. Oh, I, I know this trap well, yes.
Susan: I'm sure we all have some version of this. I do too. I mean, I could share personal stories on this, but so come to find out, and nobody was communicating this, right? So this whole thing's happening and he's going like, why isn't she liking it? Oh my God, I'm not doing it right. She's not attracted to me.
And in her head she's like, well. Like, I don't know. Why am I not liking this? I should be liking it more. And, and so it was just this train wreck, you know, he'd get frustrated and give up. She would feel like something was wrong with her. So through our work together, once I helped them understand how to pull this apart, and I asked them the question, well who is this hap?
Who is it for? Like, are you doing, are you going down on her because it feels good for you and you love it and it's like really turns you on? Are you doing it because it's something she [00:10:00] desires and she's expressed how much she loves oral sex and wants that, wants to receive that from you. And come to find out, neither of them wanted it.
Willow: What an easy solution for that couple.
Susan: Yes.
Willow: it out.
Leah: That was the perfect illustration for that question. Who's this for?
Practical Steps to Discovering Your Desires
Leah: Um, let's start, let's go a little bit deeper with the first area of inquiry, which is, what do I want? What are my desires? I, I, I remember just years of me even wrestling with this of not sure what I wanted. It was just my only thought was try something and all I can do is tell you if I like it or not.
Which put all the responsibility out there and it's been very enlightening and empowering to discover and have the courage to articulate out loud, which was another hurdle. Was a starting to know what I like, but now saying it out [00:11:00] loud, um, and I think I had a leg up because being a teacher I got, I would tell classes, so I felt like I got a big leap by having to tell more than one person at a time.
Got really good at it fast. But what's the process? How do you help someone who really has no clue what they desire? How do they investigate that?
Susan: Sure, and I, what you just spoke to is actually a very valid way of starting to discern it because sometimes, well, I'll tell you what the pathway is, but there's nothing wrong with having a little bit of containment. Actually, that is part of the process of having some options. Playing with different types of touch.
Sometimes we don't realize there's different types of touch and sensation and even no touch at all. Like we never consider that. Right. We think sex has its genitals and or stillness. Yeah, no
Leah: love it?
Susan: Yeah. So we, so there's a whole thing that can be on the buffet, right? And so sometimes it's helpful to have some options to help us kind of get the juices flowing.
But on a very fundamental level, it's what I call the three N's of the My [00:12:00] Pleasure Keys process, and it stands for notice, name, negotiate. So the very first step is this capacity to notice what am I capable of noticing right now in this moment and in my body? Can I notice? Can I take a minute and just pay attention?
If I were to close my eyes right now and I would ask you to do the same, can you just notice what do you feel? What sensations are currently available to you as you scan your awareness through your body? So right now I can feel the weight of my, uh, legs against this chair. I feel the cool air actually on my skin over here, and so I'm starting to just exercise that muscle of noticing.
And what that helps us to do, what we're actually doing is we are beginning to expand that access into the direct pleasure route. So I'm starting to exercise that muscle, which just starts with that ability to notice. And from there I can start to notice if we're going to involve, uh, if I could find pleasure right now in my body, just a place where [00:13:00] pre pleasure is already existing, so I'm not trying to manufacture anything and there's no actual partner touch happening.
Um, can I just find and locate a place in my body right now that ha, that feels. Good. That has a nice feeling to it. Something that's enjoyable or that feels spacious and not contracted. Right? So finding enjoyment where it already lives. And the next step to that is the ability, can I name that? So I might identify, I might identify a part of my body, maybe that does desire some kind of touch or a need that I have.
What I can do then is then I can name it. I can notice right now, oh, I would love, actually would love a little neck massage. I would love some attention here on my neck. Or I would love if you, I could say to my partner, for example, I would love if you would just sit across from me and just look into my eyes.
Or maybe there's something else I need. What I need to hear right now is that you love me, like so I can start to identify what I want or what I need. Or what I like. Right? And I can't do that if I don't [00:14:00] have connection to that ability to start to notice what's happening right here within my own body.
So the second piece is the naming of it. The third piece, that third end is the negotiation. And there's a lot of ways negotiation can happen. And no, it doesn't have to be like a business meeting, though it could be, it can also be like very sexy. Um, but negotiating is really just the art and the skill of being able to bring that into the relational space.
So this is where that overcoming the differences in, uh, sexual desire, desire, discrepancy. It really comes down to this ability to have the necessary skills to do these three things. Notice naming and negotiating. And within each of those three ends, there's a different skill set that we're developing. Um, a lot of people try to go straight to the negotiation part when they haven't done the very first part of the noticing or the naming, and that's where a lot of the train wrecks happens with couples.
Leah: With, with the noticing and the naming. Is this like, for instance, the noticing and sensation? Are they touching themselves? Is their partner touching them?[00:15:00]
Susan: So noticing really well it can, so it really begins, I believe, first with, it doesn't have to begin with any touch at all. So what we just did a minute ago is just that scanning awareness through the body. Sensual awareness, a practice of sensual awareness. Can I just become aware of sensations in my body?
No touch happening at all. The next aspect of this would include touch, and one of the simple. Simplest ways. It doesn't even have to start out with partner touch. It can begin with, um, a practice that, uh, I learned from Betty Martin called Waking Up the Hands, which is a lovely way, just as a solo practice to start to expand our capacity for direct pleasure.
And then if we wanna begin, so we go baby steps, right? Then we can take that into a partnered practice. A beautiful practice, actually one of my clients dubbed it The Curious Touch Practice. So I have actually taken that, and I name it the Curious Touch Practice, where we just begin with a very non sexual body part, like a hand.
Hey, can I, may I explore your hand? Can I feel your hand? Hopefully your partner says, yes, consents. And then all I'm doing, I'm transferring that skill set [00:16:00] now to a living human, which is a whole different, different set of, you know, there's a lot more that comes with that and it's remark more, way more nuances, and it's remarkable what happens when just that transition comes into play and all the obstacles that start to come up or the potential obstacles to pleasure suddenly.
What can happen a lot of times suddenly it's like, oh no. What if my partner's not wanting this or they don't like it? But what we're really doing is we're learning to touch in a way that feels good for our own body with consent of the other person. So there's a lot of stuff about this that is, it's totally game changing once it clicks, but it can be a lot to wrap your head around at the outset.
Leah: I love that. I love that distinction with like touching for your pleasure, knowing what feels good, because hands feel good when they're oftentimes touching something. And then being the touchy and feeling someone's touch and noticing the qualities of touch that really open you. And I think what's cool about the two that I've [00:17:00] experienced is when someone is touching me for their pleasure.
There's an amplification. Those mirror neurons get passed onto me and then my pleasure intensifies because I love the loop of their desire building, um, in relationship to what they're feeling when they feel me, um, on a tactile level.
Willow: yeah, the pleasure looping
Leah: Mm-hmm.
Willow: neuron is so powerful. Um,
Um, and I.
you know, the getting, trying to negotiate when you haven't taken the time to notice. to name is, the reason people get into so much trouble there
Susan: Yeah.
Willow: they don't know exactly what they're negotiating.
Susan: Right.
Willow: like, found the truth of what's happening inside of their own bodies. And, you know, the, um, the noticing feels like very presencing, you know, just like getting into the present
Susan: Yes.
Willow: your body.
Susan: And I, we also can't enter into negotiation if we don't understand the question have the answer to who is it happening [00:18:00] for? And that's a really confusing question to a lot of couples at the outset, because what you're gonna always hear is, well, it's for both of us. Or, I know it was for her because, um, she was getting pleasure out of it, or I know it was for me 'cause I was liking it.
So that's a, that's a, um, that's not the measure of who, who the moment's happening for. Just because you're getting pleasure out of it doesn't mean that the moment's happening for you. Who is it happening for? Is when we identify whose desire am I following in this moment? Am I following my own desire or am I following the desire of my partner?
There are certainly moments in life where both people are wanting the same thing at the same time. Mutual enjoyment is absolutely a thing, but I'll tell you, the couples that come to me for help or that come to my retreats, they're not in that place. They're having a lot of problems and they don't know why they're having the problems and this not understanding the nature desire and who it's
for and whose desire am I following at any one time is really at the core of that. And to get to that answer, we do, we have to have the answer to that first question of noticing, what am I able to notice right now in my body? That's how I [00:19:00] know if it's for me or for you because you might say, Hey, um. I wanna, I wanna do X, Y, Z to you.
Would that be okay? If I don't have access to my yes or my no, or really what's happening in me in response to that request? I'm not gonna know if it's something that I'm willing to do or not willing to do, or if maybe it is a desire that I also desire to do, I'm not gonna have access to that.
The Art of Negotiation in Intimacy
Leah: Okay, so now let's jump into the negotiation. What are the, what are the rules of engagement when it comes to negotiation?
Willow: gotta be some tools that go along with this negotiation
Susan: Yeah, absolutely. So I work with the two questions, um, of who, again, this comes back to, who's it for? So what would you like me to do to you, or what would you like to do to me? So those two questions actually create two completely different touch dynamics. One is me doing what I want to do. Or me allowing you to do to me what you want.
It's your desire, but I'm gonna give you access to [00:20:00] my body for your pleasure. The other one is asking, what is my desire? It's me asking to receive a gift rather than giving a gift. So we have the rules of engagement, understanding the difference between who's the giver and who's the receiver. That's really the fundamental thing.
Willow: It's such a, it's such a fun and sexy practice actually, you know, to, um, I, I remember the first time ever kind of played this with a partner and, and it was, we gave each other, I think, three or five minutes. You know, you
Susan: Yeah.
Willow: do whatever you want
Leah: You want.
Willow: body as long as I consent, you know,
Susan: Yep.
Willow: back and forth.
And I mean, we hadn't even kissed at that point, right? So it
Susan: Yes.
Willow: partner. So of course there was more charge around it, but like, we were doing all kinds of things to each other. And then finally I was like, oh. Wanna kiss you. It was just so much fun, you know? So I think, um, when, when partners who have been struggling for a long time and like just their desires and then they wanna blame it on low libido and that they're not, and start to
Susan: Yeah.
Willow: not attracted to each other and they just get into this kerfuffle [00:21:00] of layers of stuff to
Susan: Right.
Willow: playing a simple game like this can totally unravel so much so
Leah: Yeah, I have like, I've got this answer rolling in my mind of two people going like, well, I want a blow, blow job. And she's like, well, I just want my neck rubbed. So how do we, how do we then go from answering those questions to the next step in figuring out what we engage in? Especially if, you know you've got one person who really wants the sexual, another person who's. All wrapped up in ropes around their ability or desire to be sexual. They might have to start at like nonsexual touch first.
Susan: Absolutely. And so let's just take, that's a great example and that one actually that happens all the time. Right? Well, first of all, like, you know, there's a, there's really often a desire to escalate this. We start very, very small when I, you know, working with couples, it's, we don't go straight for the genital or the sexual
[00:22:00] touch right out of the gate because it comes with so many other bits of baggage and it escalates. So it's, it's backing way up first to develop the skills of negotiation first, because what can happen if there's too much too fast, we're gonna default into the old modes of like, okay, he wants me to give him a blowjob, so I'm just gonna do it because that's what I'm supposed to do, or that's gonna keep him happy.
Or in the. I even had some clients once, they're like, well, in the spirit of doing the game, you know, I just did it. I'm like, that is absolutely not. That's not the,
Leah: you missed the, yeah, the right by. Well, that's hard to do, right? Because there's this piece, I think in, in partnership where it rocks your survival to have these types of things confronted. If I can just give you a blow job. Then it settles my nervous system down to [00:23:00] think that our marriage is in threat and we're headed to being broken.
And now we're super messed up. And I just wanna have a little bit of space where we feel okay before the next thing. So we do end up saying yes when we wanna say no. Um, and that is a bad habit. And yeah. How do you address that?
Susan: Yeah. So we wanna get out of that habit and because that's, it's an unconscious habit at that point, it's a conscious of tolerating or being obligated. So we're trying to undo that and the only way to undo that is through clarity. So all of this is about creating clarity. I think I probably already said that, but, but part of that is if we can bring it into the light, then it can become a conversation of, well, right now I don't feel like sucking your dick. I'm not really willing to suck your dick right now, but what I would be willing to do is X, Y, Z, or the conversation could also be, you know what? I don't really want to give you a blowjob, but I would be [00:24:00] totally willing to do it 'cause I love you and like with an open heart, I am full on willing to give that to you as a gift.
So this is really about, it's about limits. So that's what we would call learning how to identify our, our own limits so that I can identify is it something that I'm willing, am I willing to provide that meaning I'm not tolerating, I'm not doing it out of obligation, my heart is open. I'm really genuinely willing to give that.
Or are there some? Hmm. Like there's some sticky points on that. I would kind of be violating something in me. I don't even have to know what it is if I were to provide that. But maybe there's something else that right now that I am willing to provide that I could give you with a full open heart and, and could we renegotiate this
ask so that it could be something that would make you super happy and that also I could give with a willing heart. So it's not that this is always necessarily easy, but that's the art and that's, and that's the skill, and now it's conscious. So it's not something that's happening in the shadows or unconsciously, and that's the fundamental difference.
Leah: What do you think about like transactional agreements? So I had a boyfriend once [00:25:00] and I, we had so much fun with this, so I just wanna like put my hand up that this was a great transactional process for us. But I noticed he would want something and I would notice I don't feel like it. I'm not really don't want to, but if you do this thing for me, I notice that I want to, and it really felt like an authentic thing.
How do I get to my, yes. Oh, I need something in order for my no to turn into a real Yes, and then I would show up with total enthusiasm. But I had to kind of figure out, well, shit, I mean, I do want you to have what you want. I just don't wanna give it to you until I get something that I want.
Susan: Sure. Yeah. I love that you just brought this in as an example, because that's another part to the negotiation is we can ask this question of ourselves or of our partners. What would I, and I'll do this what, what I need right now so that I could. So either person can ask that of the other. What would you need right now?
Is there [00:26:00] something I could give you or do or that you could give to yourself or do for yourself so that you would feel like. Doing X, Y, Z or giving X, Y, Z. And that is such a beautiful question. 'cause then it doesn't have to be the end of the whole thing. And that's where a lot of couples, the train wrecks, right?
And then it's just like, forget, let's call the whole thing off. It's just like, game over. Instead of like, okay, that was a little funky, a little weird. Let's slow down. Dunno what happened there, but let's just slow down and let's just see like, okay, is there something that I need right now so that I could relax a little bit more so that I could provide that thing or so that I could ask for the thing that I need and I can either give that to myself or ask for that from my partner.
That's the beautiful thing. It's not always something that my partner has to provide. Sometimes it's just that I need to ask for the thing, or I need to take a deeper breath, or I need to slow down, right? Something within myself.
Leah: right. Like, I need you to go deal with the kids. I need a bubble bath. You know? I need to
Susan: I need a hot tub.
Leah: transition. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I need you to take out the [00:27:00] garbage, clean the kitchen, empty the dishwasher.
Susan: Yeah. And mop the floors
Leah: Yes.
Susan: Cut the grass.
Leah: Or I need a new laptop, whatever it takes. Or I just need you to say, I love you, and pepper me with adoration and gratitude, or whatever. Yeah. Okay. Good.
Willow: well now it's like we're getting into people asking for their love language to be met. You know?
Susan: Hmm.
Willow: really like understanding and knowing. Is it words of affirmation that they need? Is it acts of service that they need? What is the thing that makes them feel loved and filled up to the point where they wanna then generously give?
Susan: Yeah.
Willow: So I'm just so curious with the couples that you work with, like let's say, know, a couple's been coming to, they start coming to you and they have been at. Um, a disparity inside of their marriage for, you know, 10 years or a long time, long period of time. Like what's the general, um. how do you kind of get, meet them where they're at
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Willow: then, you [00:28:00] know, slowly or quickly bring them to a place of where they are actually having fun with these practices?
Susan: Yes,
Willow: what's the protocol? What's your, how do you weave this magic into what seems like
Susan: yes.
Willow: broken marriages?
Reigniting Fun and Playfulness in Relationships
Susan: Well, yeah, in terms of format and timeframe, I mean, I think the best way that I love to work with couples is through the immersion experiences, The Pleasure Keys Retreats. I just see it's a three day fortnight experience where you're just able to really dive deep and really make a lot of progress.
So that's like my favorite way. It's not the only way. Um, otherwise I can see it for most couples, it's a four to six month journey. If it's more of like a traditional meeting, once a week type of thing to get the skills really built in, and there's stuff that has to be done outside. You know, there's so much that can be done while we're working together, but couples have to be really willing also to, uh, where the rubber meets the road is implementing and setting time aside because you're developing a whole new skillset and fun is the name of the game.
And it all begins [00:29:00] with, you know, there's just been, there's so much, um, there can be so much resentment that's built up and a couple that's been together for a long time. And there's been a lot of things that have happened over the years and, um. Right. Emotional baggage and intimate experiences that have not gone right, and so we want to reengage the idea of playfulness and fun.
And the best way to do that is just a by starting much more slowly. Maybe we don't even start with touch at all. That might be too escalated for some couples. Maybe we just start with learning how to identify and express desire and how to celebrate. The expression of that desire, because that's another thing that I see happen is one person will say, I want this, and the other person feels obligated to give it, and so they like shut down or withdraw or they give it outta obligation, which we're trying to get out of these patterns.
A expression of desire is not a request, and that's another clarification that I have to help my couples with. If,
Leah: Say that again. Say that again?
Susan: [00:30:00] an expression of a desire is not a request. Request looks different than an express. If I say, Ooh, like I want, I wanna fuck you tonight.
Leah: Mm-hmm.
Susan: That's me just expressing my desire.
It does not mean that my partner has to consent to that or that I have to follow through with that. There's no pressure on, that's just me expressing something that I want. I, Hey, I want a million dollars.
Leah: yeah. Yeah, that's so important. I think that that is the key to creating permission for people to really explore their turn on their di, their their desires, the deeper corners of what would be hot or sexy to them. You know, some of this transgressive sexual fantasy stuff that is all over romance novels.
My God, it's like we never talk about how much that actually speaks to the, the population, which is mainly women who read romance novels, but it is full of sexy, [00:31:00] transgressive energy. And there's so many things in that that turn us on that it's not saying, will you deliver that? But it's so good to own it and to have language for it and to talk about it and explore it and to see all the richness and, and uh, you know, I think we've really,
we haven't normalized F female sexuality to the degree we have men in the name of desire, so I really love that you say that because that gives people permission to explore it without feeling the pressure that if they say it out loud, that means they're asking for it.
Susan: Right. Yeah, it's a totally different thing. So the asking for it would be something totally different that would be like, Hey, would you like to have sex tonight? I could, or I can invite it, right? Is that something you want? Would you like to do that with me? Are you willing to do that? So it's an invitation.
It's a direct request or a direct invitation to have an experience together versus the expression of a desire. And so I had a couple I was working with a few years ago, and this would [00:32:00] happen with them all the time. He would express you know, like, wow, you look so sexy.
Navigating Sexual Communication in Relationships
Susan: I really wanna take you to the bedroom right now.
Something, you know, a sexual remark or just, wow, you're so beautiful. Or, oh my god. And she would completely like a deer in the headlights, like freeze up. 'cause she wasn't wanting that at that moment. And she would just go into this freeze response. And then she would end up a lot of times giving in outta obligation.
So when we worked on this piece of helping her and having the clarity, that's not a direct request, so can you just celebrate his desire instead of, and then teaching him how to make a direct request for it. So he would have different language if he wanted to, like, Hey, are you willing, or would you like to, he learned that language.
Are you willing to, would you like to, do you want to like the invitation for the making the request versus I'm just expressing a desire. Very different.
Willow: that he was just expressing or
Susan: Uh,
Willow: also a request
Susan: yeah. Yeah. No, I think the wires were very crossed. I think it, he, yeah, he did not understand that at that time either, but [00:33:00] yeah. And so there was all, again, it's when this stuff is in the shadows, it's not up illuminated in the light and there's clarity around it.
So, so the, yeah.
Creating Clarity and Shared Language
Susan: And then I wanted just to add this in, because this is a great time to bring this in, like the third piece here of like why couples get mismatched desire. They don't have the, um like the language, like the shared language in an actual framework to be able to start to have the clarity.
They don't have the language and the framework and the skillset to create that clarity. So that's really all I do when I work with couples. It's what we do at the Pleasure Keys retreats. We're creating that clarity, the framework and the common language so that then couples can navigate this on their own and then you avoid those train wrecks tend to happen far less often, and when they do, you actually now have the skills to be able to navigate through it.
Leah: You know, you know, I've, uh, what's popping through my mind is like the fantasy of having a threesome, right? And wanting to talk about how hot it would be if that bartender came home with us. Um. But that doesn't mean it's a request. It's actually a, [00:34:00] it could just be a really fun, rich, sexy, titillating conversation to be spontaneous.
Yeah. That could be really, you know, fun just to say out loud and get hot and bothered by, and then, but not necessarily say, Hey, should we pick him up? Should we pass him our phone number?
Susan: Yes. Right. Two of totally. Go ahead.
Willow: there words that you would then kind of coach people on saying in, in, in like to preface
Like, hey,
is not
like, it's not a request,
just something that
Yes.
I
I, I wanna express.
it's up inside of me and
Susan: Yeah, exactly.
Willow: you.
Leah: Yeah.
Fun and Safe Conversations About Desires
Leah: How do you create, how do you create safety for those kinds of, because I even have conversations I haven't had yet with my husband that I am, think about that I kind of wanna have. But I am a little, not like I'm scared something bad will happen, but I don't want, like you said, like some sort of weird [00:35:00] meaning making to happen.
Have it be hung over a relationship thing if it doesn't go well. And I think I don't really need it that bad to start a fuss. So what are, what's the container that supports these conversations Being fun, hopefully versus
Susan: Well, yeah, I think there's, there's, there's different contain, there's different containers for it. And Willow, like what you just said, that prefacing is one. That's one way to do it. Another really fun game that I've come across out there that I think is kind of fun is, um, the expression of how I wanna feel and versus what I want to actually do.
So they're two different things. So it says a game, like, Hey, hey, let's play a game. Okay. I'm gonna express all the things that I want to feel intimately, and I just get, so I'm gonna take like, uh, you know, let's just do 60 seconds each, right? Set a timer. So I'm gonna do it and then you can do it, and then you can actually, I have an expression, okay?
Susan: All the things I actually would like to do. To you or with you that I actually wanna act on. And you set a [00:36:00] timer and have a minute where you share that. So the time is an important piece. So that time actually contains it. It could be three minutes, it doesn't have to be one minute, but just something that's short and fun.
And I think that you do have to have a certain understanding already in place. Like you said, Willow, like, you know, I mean, yeah, we don't wanna bring stuff in if our partner is really going to be super triggered. We wanna be sensitive to, I would get curious about what those triggers are before I ever would do something like this.
What are the triggers? It doesn't mean I wanna open the relationship, you know, if that's a big trigger for somebody, um, we might wanna just get curious about that piece first before we like launch off the deep end and start expressing, let's bring the bartender home, right?
Willow: I feel
Leah: Mm-hmm.
Willow: like there's so many unexpressed desires, you know, even outside of sexuality within coup long-term couples
Susan: Yes.
Willow: of this. Uh, idea of like, well, I just know how they're gonna respond. I know how they're gonna take this expression. I, I've tried it before. So the samskara is like the old imprints from previous [00:37:00] years in the relationship, and that shuts down
Susan: Yeah.
Willow: expression.
Susan: Ugh.
Willow: Um, so what would you say to couples who are kind of stuck in that, like, yeah, I'd like to express, I'm, I'm into the bartender, but
Susan: Yes.
Willow: be a shit show. For
Leah: love this bartender thing
Susan: I do too. Who's this bartender.
Willow: I think he's Irish too, by the way.
Susan: Oh.
Leah: or, yeah, or she could be Italian. We don't know.
Susan: Oh, even better.
Willow: Okay.
Susan: Yeah, I think we have to, well, there's a couple things on this. We have to be willing, I think, to see, we create so many stories, especially in long-term relationships, stories about ourselves, stories about our partners, stories about the way that things were and the way things are that Can I stop for a moment?
And I think one beautiful practice. Can I just see the truth of my partner's heart that I know that. That he or she loves me, he or she cares about me. Like really? If that's true in your relationship, which I would hope it is, if you've been together that long, not maybe always for everybody, but can I see their true heart?
Can I practice to give them a chance to be [00:38:00] somebody new? So there's that piece, right? Can I give them that opportunity to be somebody different than how I am limiting them through how I'm seeing them? I'm not giving them an opportunity to become somebody new for me if I'm only seeing them through the eyes of the past.
And the second piece is the willingness ourselves to show up. Differently 'cause we get stuck in our own patterns and our own limiting beliefs and the negative self-talk that can go on inside our heads. Can I just tell that to shut up and can I give myself a chance to be somebody new? Can I be so self-responsible and accountable for my own experience that I am willing to show up differently and that I'm willing to trust the moment and trust my partner to perhaps be somebody new and different
also, in that moment, we might really be pleasantly surprised.
Leah: So good.
Willow: The last little bit of what Susan said, I couldn't hear.
Leah: Oh, you couldn't.
Susan: Oh.
Willow: but if it recorded, that's fine. Um, okay.
Leah: it did.
Willow: it did. Okay. Let
Leah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna, okay. Are you pausing or are we still filming?
Willow: pause and just, um, unless you wanna dive into something else, I'm wanting to kind of these next hooks,
Understanding Somatic Therapy
Leah: Well, I was, I think the next place we could visit is a somatic therapy.
Willow: Okay.
Leah: So yes. Tell us about the somatic therapy interventions that have been successful for you, and maybe first explain what is somatic therapy for those listeners that may be unfamiliar.
Susan: Yeah, there's a lot of like lack of [00:39:00] knowledge around that word, and then also some confusion around it. And there are also different threads of somatic therapy in the sexuality realm. So thank you for that opportunity to clarify at a really fundamental level, somatic just means of or pertaining to the body, meaning that it's a type, it's an approach where we're incorporating
more of experiential knowledge and wisdom that our bodies bring. The, the reactions that happen in our body, we're actually actively working with those in somatic approaches to therapy, whether that's around sexuality or even trauma or any other type of psychological, it can be used across the board through mental health, all the way into sexuality, trauma resolution.
So in my work as a somatic sex therapist, I am not putting hands on my clients. There are some threads of somatic sex work, uh, somatic sex education, sexological body work, these are somatic approaches that do hands on work where the practitioner touches the body and sometimes, uh, genital touch is part of that or can be part of that.
Um, I don't use that as a somatic sex therapist, but what I am doing is I'm bringing my couples [00:40:00] into experiential practices where in real time they get to meet and greet the thing that is actually in the way of them, let's say, having more, uh, a deeper connection or more pleasure in intimacy. And that's just done through, again, experiential practices where they're actually being brought into connection,
let's say. How we might do that might be through using breath, through using eye contact and then using different, um, practices that help develop that first skill of noticing. There's multiple practices I use that are done solo practice, but also in the relational space. How we start to bring in that noticing relationally and being able to use our voice as part of that.
Um, so yeah, that's it.
Addressing Sexual Trauma in Relationships
Leah: You know, I'm curious how often, and then what do you do if it shows up when you have a partner who's had, um, a sexual trauma? In their background that deeply actually affects how they're able [00:41:00] to express themselves sexually. How much capacity they have to receive their partner's sexual energy. How often is that an obstacle that, that people have to unwind?
Susan: A lot. I mean, I see that a lot. Yeah. It's, it, it, because unfortunately sexual abuse and trauma is so rampant out there, either through childhood sexual abuse or, you know, later in life. Um, and, and really it, but again, it comes back to this very first skill of noticing. So what you wanna do in those situations is help that person be able to slow
down to notice enough of what's happening in the body, when is the shutdown happening? And so having that level of awareness is really the first step, right? Can I become aware of when I am closing off? When am I pulling away? When is, and what? What are the sensations in my body like when that happens so that we can start then to track it?
Because once you have that awareness, then you can start to name it. So I've noticed and I've named, and then there's two things that we do to start to create more safety [00:42:00] in the body. And it's either slow down or reduce intensity, or both. It could be a combination of the two of those and the, they could be one and the same, potentially, depending on what's going on.
So slowing down or reducing intensity, that might mean, whoa, I need you to stop touching me completely so I can just breathe into my body. I might need you to move just 10 feet away. So that my nervous system can come back into a state of regulation
Leah: Mm-hmm.
Susan: so that we're, I'm equipping them with those skills.
And so there's several things happening there, right? But once they learn how to have sort of control and authority over that, then we can sort of gradually increase intensity. At their discretion, they're in control of that. How far, how close, how fast, where is the touch happening? Learning how to really, what's called choice and voice in the somatic science education world.
Empowerment Through Choice and Voice
Susan: Empowerment of choice and voice. So choice is about having choices that I always have a choice to say yes or no or maybe. I have a choice to just opt out completely. We don't [00:43:00] have, we're so conditioned that you have to, right? You have to eat all the food on your plate. Uh, you have to sit at this desk for eight hours a day.
You have to be still during class. I mean, as kids, we are just conditioned into denying our bodies responses. Our natural responses we're, we've been trained for a lifetime to ignore them, for generations, and more so even with women, right? We're trying to be.
Willow: the voice, to to be seen and pretty, but not to be heard. I think, I think the expression for women is probably one of the hardest places too. 'cause it's like if, uh, if the throat gets shut down or the vulva or the vagina gets shut down, they're such a mirror
Yes.
image of each other. And
Susan: Yes.
Willow: you know, um, if there was sexual abuse, if there was, or even just
Leah: Just a dominant parent that, that when you know that suppressed your voice and all of the things
Willow: even just not like encouragement inside of sexuality.
Leah: [00:44:00] Right.
Willow: Maybe just living in a suppressed, you know, Catholic household or
Susan: Well, sure. Just this society in general, I mean, the pure, the Puritan influences in our country are so unconscious, right? I mean, we're really founded on like the denial of pleasure and, uh, the hard work ethic. And no pleasure until you've worked really hard and all. We don't even, I'll tell you this crazy realization of this.
When I was, uh, about 20, a little over 20 years ago, I took a trip to Nepal, which was fabulous, but it was so insane there. Like I realized all my American conditioning around this in this very way. So in Nepal, they'll serve you all this food on a plate and whatever you eat first, they come around and give you more of that
thing. But I was, yeah, so I was so conditioned like, well, I don't really wanna eat the carrots, but like I'm going to eat 'em first so then I can get to like the good stuff later. But what would happen is I'd eat the carrots and they'd come and they'd bring me more. I'm like, well, shoot, why are you bringing me more?
So I didn't understand. So once I caught onto [00:45:00] like, oh no, you eat the stuff you like first, and then they bring you more of the stuff you like and they don't bring any more of the stuff, you don't. But this whole thing went off in me of like, wow, like, I mean, I was so unconsciously conditioned to like, eat your peas before your.
You're mean.
Leah: great. Yeah. You know?
Willow: pleasure.
Susan: You don't get any pudding if you don't eat your meat! Because how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
Leah: That that is so funny. I also did the same thing my whole life until I realized I'm eating the best bite first. The best bite. 'cause you can always taste, the first three bites are the best bites. That's your mouth is so yummy. Okay, so I wanna, this isn't a pushback, but it is a counter and I, I wanna preface it by saying I agree with everything that was just said.
And sometimes we have an avoidant tendency, which means we're so in the habit of like not pushing ourselves. We stay in the fear, we stay in the avoidance of not wanting to feel the scary feelings that are trapped [00:46:00] in our body because of an inflection point of trauma in the past. And sometimes we actually need encouragement to confront the thing we're afraid of
feeling. That we, we get flooded because it presents itself and then we run in the other direction. So it's like we gotta be able to, I think, decipher. When am I, I need a, I'm flooded, I need a break. I can't take any more stimulation. Can we have a timeout as compared to, I don't even wanna try. I don't even want that.
And then we find ourselves never having intimacy because that avoidance is so strong.
Susan: Yeah, that's
Leah: Then what do we do for the partner who's always in the yo-yo of trying to figure out, well, now none of my needs get met because this is all based on you.
Susan: yeah. Well, there's sort of a sweet spot in this whole, it's called like the learning zone, right? Where there's just enough nervous system activation where we're actually able to let new information in. So we're not in the comfort zone total like [00:47:00] avoidance and we're not so flooded and overwhelmed, we're in the trauma response, the flight or flight or freeze.
Um, so there's sort of a certain nuance to that of learning how to find that within yourself. If you are that person that is the shut one, shutting down, who's experienced the traumas, can you, again, it comes back to that skill of noticing like. It's a fine line. And I would say that we have to give ourselves permission to not always get it right and to not always know.
Um, the other thing I always ask my couples is, what are the potential things that are going to come up in this process that could sabotage your success? We're gonna identify those at the very, very beginning to the best of our ability. Because what I want is, I want my couples being able to identify what their patterns are, ideally as best they can ahead of time, and then resource themselves.
So when that happens, what are you gonna do to make sure that it doesn't, because you're here and you obviously want something to be, if we really want change, we've gotta be willing, right, ready, willing, and able. So can you identify what the potential sabotage [00:48:00] saboteurs are? The behavior patterns, the thought patterns, things that are gonna happen that you're gonna default.
And so once they name that, so we've got notice and name again, then okay, great. Then I ask, how are you gonna manage that when it comes up? What are you gonna do to make sure it doesn't derail you? And so I have them identify what's gonna work for them. And I'll ask also, what can I, is there anything that I can that you need from me or that you can ask or from your partner?
We don't wanna make it all on the other person or on the therapist. Right? Because it's not, I want them leaning on their own energy. I wanna be there to be a support, a facilitator, a catalyst, an illuminator. But I don't want the, the change is not on me. I'm there to support it, but I'm happy if I can provide something to help that.
If I notice it a lot of times, like, okay, yeah, I, if I notice it, I'll call it out. I will. 'cause now that you've just said that's your pattern, if I see it, I'll call it out. But I'm gonna also call you to do the things within you that you just said you're gonna do when this happens, which might be like, I'm gonna notice it or [00:49:00] name it, or I'm gonna tell you, or ask my partner for support.
So we have to resource ourselves in that. We cannot leave it to default or leave it all on our partner or our therapist shoulders to do that work for us.
Willow: Mm.
Leah: So good, so good. Love it.
Willow: Yeah, super powerful.
Pleasure Keys Retreats for Couples
Leah: So, um, I believe you have your pleasure Keys retreats for couples.
Susan: yes. What would you like to
Leah: it. Well, yeah. How often? Yeah. Yeah. Tell us, tell us what it is, how long they are, how do they send all the things.
Susan: Oh, thank you so much. Well, the retreats are really my absolute favorite way to work with couples. Again, I think I said this earlier because I really, I love to be able to see couples go deep and to get out of like the day to day life, to get away from work obligations, kids, and sort of the normal household stuff where we're stuck in our patterns to really be able to pull away and go deep where I can really teach these principles and.
They can leave with it embodied. It's embodied learning. They learn through experience, so it's not just in the head [00:50:00] where we're analyzing or talking about concepts. And it's not just a once a week thing where you forget what you just talked about in the session the following week. So it really is a chance to go deep and develop these skills of
getting back on the same page. And the notice name and negotiate and all the nuanced skills that are under each of those three ends. We go deep into that and it can be fun. So we do the retreats this year. I have two retreats. I have one coming up, uh, actually in a couple weeks here and another one this fall.
Um, and we'll be doing them about four times a year. So kind of a couple in the spring and a couple in the fall. So the best way.
Willow: How many couples come to these retreats?
Susan: Yeah, I cap it at about 10 couples, so it is intimate and I do that on purpose to keep it intimate and, um, yeah. And so there's lots of time for the couples to connect. There's a lot of time in the afternoon.
We do the teaching from about the morning into the early afternoon, and then afternoons and evenings are open, so I don't like to have like where it's all crammed in and you're exhausted at the end of the day. We may. Yeah. Lots of breaks and there's food and. [00:51:00] Yes and beautiful. Our next one is gonna be in Gatlinburg, Tennessee in the Smoky Mountains, which is just absolutely a stunning location.
If you've never been a beautiful place, we'll actually do our one in the fall there as well. And then, uh, we'll be having some other locations coming up in 2026.
Willow: That's
Leah: where, where do you call home?
Susan: My home is the Western Mountains of North Carolina, so I'm about an hour west of Asheville, up in the beautiful mountains here. I love it.
Leah: And then you also work one-on-one with couples or individuals or just couples?
Susan: I do, yeah, I do work with individuals. I'm a specialist in women's sexuality, so I primarily will work with women as individuals and I work also with couples in private coaching and I work with couples around the world. I, I do virtual coaching.
Willow: Great. And how can
Susan: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. All of my stuff lives at www.pathwaytopleasure.com.
Willow: Nice.
Leah: And you have a, I believe you have a free gift for our audience. I thought I saw that somewhere. Can you tell us about it?
Susan: Yes. So I have a free ebook if anyone would like to go a little bit deeper on the conversation around the pleasure keys and actually have some [00:52:00] practical things that you can do today to start to implement and develop the notice name, negotiate. So it's a free, I. Uh, downloadable ebook at www.pleasurekeys.com, and really the goal of that is to give you a taste of some of these principles in an experiential way so that you can deepen connection, increase orgasmic potential, and start to get back on the same page, creating mutual fulfillment for the long term.
Leah: Wow. Thank you so much.
Willow: pleasure to be here with you today, Susan. Thanks for
Final Thoughts and Podcast Promotion
Leah: Oh, and let's talk about your podcast,
Susan: Oh yes. Oh my goodness. I always forget about the podcast Sex Talk Cafe podcast.
Willow: We were
Susan: I love the podcast. Y'all were on the podcast. It was. I had so much fun with you guys on there. We had such a great time. Yes. Sex Talk Cafe. It's on all the platforms out there. Uh, we do juicy conversations on. Sex, love, relationships, embodied sexuality, all kinds of great topics.
And these two amazing, uh, women we're just on. And we'll be getting that episode published very soon. So join me over there at Sex Talk Cafe, uh, the website on that www.sextalkcafe.net, but you can [00:53:00] find it on any of the major podcast platforms.
Willow: Awesome.
Leah: And we'll have, uh, all the links on the show notes for all these goodies. Susan, you know, after our, uh, recording with you on your show, will and I hung up going, we really like her. She could be our friend. So thank you so much.
Willow: Susan that, she texted me back. She's like, I have the same thought.
Leah: Yeah, it was really great. Yes. Yeah.
Susan: Well, I'm looking, I'm looking at the Bliss Boogie or The Boogie. What was that
Leah: Oh, bliss Boogie. Yes.
Susan: in Raleigh, so it's only about five hour drive from me. So yeah, I'm looking at the dates and yeah, I think I may try to make it up there, so I'll let you all know we can meet up.
It'd be
Leah: Yes, that would be fabulous. Well,
Susan: much. This has been so great connecting with you and yeah, such a ton of fun. So I hope we'll be in touch and have more fun together in the future.
Willow: Okay.
Leah: y'all, this is, uh oh. Next we have the dish, so stay tuned.
The Dish with Leah & Dr. Willow Brown
Announcer: Now our favorite part, the dish.
Willow: If [00:54:00] you think low sex drive is the problem in your relationship, think again. The real reason, desire fades has nothing to do with attraction and everything to do with something much deeper. So let's dish it up.
Leah: dish it out. Yes. You know, that was the biggest takeaway from this episode, and it was so refreshing. You know, one of the things I wish I would've asked her was her opinion, if she had an opinion on spontaneous desire versus responsive desire, and if she plays with that at all. Because it's another angle of working with mismatched libidos, and I feel like her system is actually a great way to address that responsive desire versus spontaneous desire, um, issue.
But I also kind of like that she doesn't categorize that because it's, feels really good to go this is an obstacle that can be solved. And this is how you do it without having to put labels on anyone.
Willow: [00:55:00] Yeah. Yeah, her, her, um, noticing, negotiating and naming technique, you know, the three ends
Leah: Yeah.
Willow: was really, it leaves it a little bit more open. Like you start with noticing what are the sensations in my body. It helps you get really present. You can drop into a different level in your nervous system, what are you noticing?
Are you
Leah: Noticing frustration. You,
Willow: tightness? Are you noticing anger? Are you
Leah: you notice love and
Willow: and openness? You know, and then naming those things so that you have your finger on the pulse of what's going on inside of, from that place communicating, her word was negotiating.
Um,
which isn't the sexiest of words, but she did say that
that too.
But, you know, it is like, relationships can be such a negotiation, you know, it's like, this is what I'm bringing, that's what you're bringing and how can we, um, you know, come together in a cohesive way.
Leah: And I was really, uh, pleased to get the approval of my, um, uh, I, [00:56:00] I can get to a yes if I get this, that, and the other thing, like to ask yourself what do I need to have a enthusiastic Yes. To be able to provide that?
Willow: that technique, you brought up a, a relationship in the past that you had to use that for,
Leah: Uhhuh. Yeah. And it worked great. I got a computer, um, I think I got a trip to Mexico. It really, really worked. You know, I'd be like, okay, eight sacred spot sessions, you know, for this laptop. It was so fun. And actually I really, the excitement of being provided something that I needed, um, gave me so much more enthusiasm to show up so much bigger with so much more joy.
It was a really interesting transaction and I'm so grateful that there wasn't resentment on either side because that's my fear. You know, people do, and I can understand why transactional, um, too much transactional, transactional things in a partnership can really leave someone feeling [00:57:00] sour. Um, that's.
Willow: start like to feel like a business partnership
Leah: exactly.
Willow: It's, yeah, and I think, you know,
Leah: You know, I think in the way that you played with it, that particular partner was fun game. Yeah. Brought you guys close. I'm curious if you
Willow: it at all in your
current relationship?
Leah: No, because we share everything, you know. Um, all the money goes to the same place, so...
Willow: It doesn't make sense. You
Leah: Yeah, I, I have, I got the, I have got the access to the credit cards as much as he does, you know what I mean?
So it's not like I need him to provide for me in that way. Um,
Willow: other way he could provide for you that would make you, I mean, you're already pretty excited to deliver
Leah: yeah, it. Yeah, it's right. I, yeah, it's different for some reason. And he doesn't seem to have the same level of neediness. And I, I use that word loosely because I don't, we often use the word neediness to judge. Um, and I'm not using it in this case to be judgy. But [00:58:00] this other partner had more needs and wants for more sexual
stuff. And so sometimes, um, I just didn't want to, I wasn't in the mood and so I had to come up with something to help, to transform that and tr uh, transcend that. And then this just worked. And we weren't living in a shared household. It wasn't like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Willow: Yeah,
you're gonna, um, learn with Susan and you're in partnership
looking
and
some support, check out her retreats because they sound amazing.
Leah: They do. I mean, I even thought I, I might be fun to go do something like that with Matt. I mean, it just seems like she just gives so many skills and communication, which is like the, the most important thing when it comes to having better sex is being able to talk about it and have some space being held.
So you can say the things that you've been afraid to say. You can take some of those risks. Um, [00:59:00] that, that I'm really was happy with the way she answered that question.
Willow: Yeah, that was great. All right, y'all,
Leah: All right. You know what you need to do now? You guys is You need to subscribe my love. Yes.
Willow: like, and share, and we will see you in the comments.
Leah: Yeah.
Willow: you thought about our interview with Susan Taylor.
Leah: Okay. Love, love, love.
Announcer: Thanks for tuning in. This episode was hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and positive psychology facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine doctor and Taoist Taxology teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget your comments, like subscribes and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.
