E.135 | SxS | Amy Taylor | FINAL
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Meet Former High-End Escort Amy Taylor
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Leah: Welcome back. This is Leah Piper, your tanha expert, and I'm here with Dr. Willow Brown, your DAOs expert at the Sex Reimagined Podcast.
Willow: Yes. And today we are interviewing a really special guest, Amy Taylor, who was in the sexuality industry as a sex worker, as an escort for many years, and she is quite a story to share with you. she also became a commercially licensed pilot in that interim and got into not only molecular biology, but also, uh, oil. So she's
Leah: was in the oil business.
Leah: She was in the real estate business. She the excort business. She was
Willow: modeling buisness.
Willow: Gonna love this woman. Yeah. She's fascinating.
Leah: Very accomplished. And, uh, she has some wild stories to tell about her adventures. Misadventures I would probably, say So please
Willow: Tune in, turn on and fall in love.
Willow: with Amy Taylor.
Announcer: [00:01:00] Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.
Leah: Amy Taylor, welcome to the show.
Willow: We're so excited to have you and to dive into so many amazing juicy topics that we have not talked about yet on this Sex Reimagined podcast.
Amy: It nice to see you guys. How you doing?
Leah: Good.
Sex Work Advocacy & Bodily Autonomy Rights
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Leah: You know, one of the things I know you're passionate about and do a lot of work around advocacy work around is sex work and the legal ramifications, the social ramifications, the judgment, the purity culture, and then you know, the, the freedom that we should have with our bodies and the choices and the things that actually serve our culture, that sex work Participates in and contributes with.
Leah: So let's just like dive in. How did you get started with, uh, your
Leah: advocacy? Yeah, so thank you for saying that. And I'm not faulting anybody who's lived experiences different than my [00:02:00] own, much like any other massive multi-billion dollar industry, it is not a monolith. And I understand that. I lived at the very privileged end of things. There is much, I don't know. Um, but it is my belief that the bodily autonomy issue is a major one.
Amy: I don't think the state should own our bodies. I just don't. Or a church or any other entity. I think autonomy is a, is a really big deal. You give that up, you, it's a slippery slope. And I also believe that you cannot be driven by a desire to spite, punish, and criminalize your way out of things that are full of problems.
Amy: That's never worked. Anytime we've tried that in human history. I think when you lead with kindness, compassion, and love, you can actually do better to minimize things that are problematic. Uh, but it takes some, uh, better logic. The instinct is sort of this base animal instinct to spite and punish your way out of things, and, and that usually fails even if in the moment it feels good to those in [00:03:00] power.
Amy: Um, it doesn't work. So, and I've seen that firsthand. I, I have, uh, two decades of experience on and off part-time in sex work. I've been a high-end companion. How did that start for me?
Amy: Poverty, um, high sort of high-end poverty. So the two things can be true at
Willow: Highend poverty.
Willow: Wow.
Amy: know two things. You can be classy and broke.
Willow: Okay.
From Berkeley Biotech to Financial Struggles
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Amy: So I'm a professor's kid. My family had lots of class, you know, spoke languages, would go to Paris. But we'd go to Paris and stay in a relative's house in the 18th mall, which is like the hood. So we weren't going to the Four Seasons, George sank, right? We weren't, you know, we were flying with like four connections to go see my grandmother, who, you know, couldn't get citizenship in the US.
Amy: So you can seem, you know, we had a lot of class, but no cash. We stayed in Holiday Inns, we weren't. And so I did. I went to Berkeley undergrad because I was a smart, nerdy kid. They gave me money to go there, but my, I, [00:04:00] I studied molecular biology. I get out, I work in biotech at this place in Marin County, California, north of the Golden Gate Bridge.
Amy: I was spending money to work there, trying to live in the Bay Area. So I, the two, like I say, fancy poverty. Everyone was like, Ooh, you're a scientist. Yes, I was. It was true. I was a bench researcher, just the bachelor's degree level, and I was making negative money and I was not living like I do now as an older lady in my forties, I was living in a studio in Oakland and I still couldn't afford groceries.
Amy: I couldn't afford the gas in my car, and I did have the, the fancy job they tell you to get. I got a STEM degree with honors, so, I had a rich boyfriend, a doctor, he paid for all of our trips and stuff that benefited him, but he actually wouldn't even pay for like the clothes. He'd be like, let's go to Tahiti for a week.
Amy: Yeah, sure. Yes. Great. I, I like that. Duh. And I loved him, but then I was like trying to keep up with him and even just paying for a week's worth of bikinis. I didn't have it, you know, you don't have it when you're [00:05:00] 21. Uh. In my sorority house, I moved into a sorority. Actually it was cheaper than the apartments at Berkeley, so I didn't, people think sororities are always sort of fancy rich girls.
Amy: We were not. I was not, uh, it was actually less expensive 'cause you're living in a room with three girls and, you know, sharing everything. So, uh, again, fancy poverty. It looks like, like, don't believe everything you look about people, right? They, that bag might be a knockoff that, that you don't know. Uh,
Amy: and I'm sure.
Leah: up, like my parents pretended to be middle class, It was like we, we were pretending while they were fighting around having enough money for the groceries, you know, it was sort of like, I can really relate to what you're saying. So how did.
Amy: Well, and no one wants to seem like trash because there's so many, so there's so much social shit and. And, and, and benefit in pretending to have a little class. Right. I do speak French. That has made me a lot of money. Um, I, I know [00:06:00] which fork to use, but it's not like we, we never even were allowed to order steak.
Amy: I knew what we could afford and couldn't, but I know how to cut and if I have to, so Right. You, no one pretends to be lower than they are on the social scale because of the cost of behaving that way. I, I, or, or maybe it
Leah: that give you a leg up when you became, uh, a companion, quote-on-quote.
Amy: Yeah, of course. Of course it did, because I seemed present more presentable than I was. I speak this way because I'm a professor's kid. My dad speaks six languages. Like I said, we never had any money, but he had a lot of class. He's a smart dude and he is a classy guy, but he was a refugee from, my dad was born in Budapest in 1941.
Amy: Bad place to be a Jew. Uh, Nazis on one side, Soviets on the other. So he was a refugee. Uh, the Parisians took a lot of them in, but never gave them citizenship. He was undocumented and treated like shit accordingly, just like we do now to the mostly Latino ones. He was part of the wave of Eastern European ones in the forties, fifties and sixties.
Amy: He was allowed to come to America, uh, because he was a [00:07:00] science person and we wanted his skills. But he was, again, not given papers till he married my mother. And my mother was an Air Force brat. Again, social clout, right? But no, not no money.
Discovering the Escort Industry Through a Sorority Sister
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Amy: So I go to Berkeley, I hear from this sorority sister who she was a CAL cheerleader.
Amy: She's gorgeous. Like the perfect look, you know, blonde thin, what, what really sells. And, uh, her parents got divorced and her dad was really fucking her mom over in the, in the fight. And she had to move out of our sorority house. She couldn't afford even to live there. Then we both were there one summer, I was taking a summer class to like knock down some units to save money and be in college less long.
Amy: Right. And working some part-time. Uh, I worked at a clothing store. It sucked. Uh, and uh, she stayed there one summer and she got a car, not a, not a great one, but I was like, oh, is your dad like being better to you guys now? And she confessed that she was working as a high-end escort. And I was like, dude, what's that?
Amy: Tells me, she goes across the gold, the Bay Bridge and goes out to dinner with some tech nerd with a lot of money and [00:08:00] comes home with a few thousand dollars. And I was like, wait, like I'm doing that with this doctor I've dated and I'm spending money on the dress that he'll pay for dinner, but he won't pay for my dress and I'm going broke here.
Amy: Like you could get paid to do that.
Amy: And she laughed and said, sometimes there's physical stuff. Most of the time there isn't. Um, they were all very nice, just kind of nerdy and rich and busy and bored. Uh. So my first impression of it was probably overly positive. Right? I thought that's what all of it was like, is like, dude, you're just, and you, and she was like, yeah, they're, they're not gonna commit to you.
Amy: They're not gonna marry you. I was like, dude, fine with me. I don't wanna do that. I wanna go to graduate school and live my life. I
Leah: How old were
Willow: Yeah, I was just gonna say, what, what year
Amy: was
Amy: 19, she was 20, she was one year ahead of me. Maybe I was 20 and she was 21. I, I started college a year early at 17. It was my sophomore summer, so I would've been 19, almost 20.
Leah: Okay.
Willow: Mm-hmm.
Amy: So I filed that away in the back of my head, right? Oh my God, I didn't know you. I didn't know this was a thing.
Amy: And you know, [00:09:00] pretty young girl.
Willow: a clothing store. Huh?
Amy: Well, and again, didn't need to do it 'cause I had the rich boyfriend, but as that fell apart and, uh, I worked in biotech after college, as I told you. Was pretty mediocre at hated, it wasn't making enough money.
Amy: He was eyeballing me as like, I'm gonna marry you and we, I wanna have kids soon. 'cause he was 10 years older. I was gonna move to this small town inland of the Bay Area and be a doctor's wife and it, it would've been perfect. And that's what women did for all of history. Right?
Willow: Right.
Amy: I didn't wanna, I wanted,
Willow: all secured and locked in and locked down.
Amy: and I was.
Leah: didn't
Willow: another path was calling you? Yeah.
Amy: don't know. I'm sure many people think I'm an idiot. And, you know, he did just fine without old Amy. He married, he had kids. He's fine, he's fine.
Amy: Uh, he replaced me real quick, but I, uh, wanted other things. I wanted to live in a big city. I wanted to, uh, I had gotten into LA undergrad, but they didn't give me as much of a scholarship, so I didn't go.
Amy: I really wanted to live in la Palm trees, sunshine, pretty [00:10:00] people. It was, it was about 500 miles away. You go down sometimes to Disneyland as a, I want a lot of people
Leah: Did you go?
Amy: I did, I went and got my MBAI, I totally pivoted. I was like, I need other skills. 'cause all I'm trained to do is biotech.
Amy: I hate it and it doesn't pay well enough, and I don't wanna go get a PhD in it and follow my father's track.
Amy: I wanna, so I do an MBA, uh, we don't make it. He and I, we're gonna, I was gonna go two years and then come back and we'd get married and we break up. He sleeps with somebody else. Honestly, that was my ticket out. Uh, it was like, oh, you cheated. Sorry. Bye.
Willow: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Amy: I was sad at the moment. I did love him, but the problem was he yanked the financial rug out from underneath me when we broke up because he was the one funding my MBA that he, that he reluctantly agreed that I should get.
Amy: He didn't really want me to do anything.
Willow: He didn't want you empowered.
Amy: I mean, not really, but
Leah: a wife and he wanted a mother, so
Amy: did get
Leah: what I mean. There's nothing wrong with his desire, I don't
Leah: think he wanted her disempowered. [00:11:00] That doesn't sound like he was trying to keep you down. He was just clear about what he was after.
Amy: And honestly me having an MBA, there would've been nepotism. He worked in academic medicine, he would've made sure I got a job. And the MBA probably would've helped. I could have gone into the business of science or writing or something else besides being at the bench, lonely killing mice all day, which is what I was doing.
Amy: I was, I was a real mouse murderer. And it, and you know, it's gotta be done. We all take medicine. But it was hard on my soul, honestly. It was really hard to kill so many animals all the time. And.
Leah: you, you get to LA and then how do you actually bridge into escort work?
Amy: We break up. I've got, he takes back my car. I'm in LA with negative income, right? Not only no income, but giant, giant bills . Uh, and I was like, oh yeah, that thing Lisa told me about.
Leah: How did you actually start getting clients?
Amy: I looked around on the internet,
Leah: 2002. So, uh, yeah, it was no smartphones yet, but, but Web 2.0 was burgeoning. It was no longer like dial up and all. It was better than that. Um, and I called a couple agencies. They wouldn't hire me. They only hired like actresses and models. [00:12:00] Um, but one told me, she's like, you're clearly a romantic extrovert.
Amy: You like dating. It's all true. I do. And uh, you're
Leah: Did you like sex
Amy: Sure. Of course.
Leah: At this age? Okay.
Amy: Yeah, and I had only had sex with this guy ever. That's the first interview
Willow: he
Leah: Oh wow. Okay. Not totally experienced.
Amy: very much ready to some other people, and boy did I, I, I fucked many more than I thought I would, but I'm honestly not. Sorry. It was fun.
Amy: I had a great
Leah: totally.
Amy: Everything. I never, I had a sorority sister who was super hot and I didn't fuck her when I had the chance. And I wanted to do all these things. I wanted to go to gang bangs and orgies and all things people do in their twenties and thirties and forties and still,
Amy: and I did. And I, I just wanted freedom and a full expression of a human life, including my sexuality.
Amy: And I didn't really want commitment. I was kind of broken hearted over the guy, so I was like, oh, freedom, a little income. I get to spread my wing sexually. Sounds like a win.
Amy: And she told me, you can do this on your own. You don't need an agency. You're pretty [00:13:00] smart chick. And honestly, it ain't rocket science to set up shop and hang out your shingle.
Amy: It's just a small one person internet business. You get some photos and an ad, and an email and a phone. It's, it's not exactly, you know,
Leah: It's not that hard.
Amy: company. So, um, it's just, it's literally just dating. You set up a profile, it's exactly like dating except you
Amy: marriage and, and the guys are richer and help you out and they can leave anytime they want, but frankly they do anyway even if they're not paying you.
Amy: So, um. And so it was fun. I promptly met a billionaire who I saw for over a decade. I met a Hollywood agent who took me all over the world. I had a great time. Uh, and yes, I had a lot of s*x with a lot of people and I had fun. I went to very fancy celebrity laden swinger parties, not like abusive stuff like P Diddy.
Amy: Like it was totally fun.
Amy: And, uh, and it was great. It was, I finished my degree, I got a job in oil. I learned to fly planes, which I still do. Um, I've been able [00:14:00] to be financially independent and even help support my family. The, and I've learned a lot, we can talk about it, but sex work has a lot to teach the, the shame ridden world about sexual satisfaction and consent and because the, the freedom of these Yes.
Amy: Transactional relationships. Yes, there's a power differential, but there often is, anyway, in relationships for lots of reasons. And ours, they empower sort of self-expression because people are kind of like, fuck it, we're not gonna really have a real relationship anyway, so may as well be honest and in a twisted way.
Willow: of like more clear parameters and, and, um,
Willow: you know, roles. Yeah.
Amy: Because you're not gonna like go get married and run away and have kids. And if you don't like each other, you can both replace each other. And the weird good, the weird upside of that is that you can be more honest, which is funny and actually works out discovery and exploration. I've met a lot of people [00:15:00] who didn't wanna die, having only done missionary in the dark, you know?
Leah: was the downside of it for
Willow: yeah, I'm cur And I'm also curious, like if
Willow: you had other, um, relationships during that time, like more
Willow: personal relationships as well.
Amy: Yeah. And they ended up a shit show every time. Perhaps po possibly some of that was me not, not really wanting to leave sex work. When you're one foot in and one foot out, you get nowhere in life, right? 'cause you don't, you don't head in one direction with your full chest.
Amy: I look back, I dunno, it's hard to know what you were feeling at the time and retroactively you kind of rewrite history, so I don't know.
Amy: But yes, I fell in love with a neighbor who was a baseball player 'cause he was so fucking hot and I'm a human being and he did know, he knew what I did. I didn't lie to him. We, we thought we'd try to work it out and I would ease out and we'd be normal. Yeah, I totally failed and he's fine now. He lives in the Pacific Northwest and he's fine and
Leah: and [00:16:00] are you fine?
Amy: It's a long time ago now, in another life I would've married him and given it a go. And we tried and it was tragic. We, we got pregnant, we had a miscarriage because
Amy: I had a really traumatic stalker.
Surviving an Online Pimp's Revenge Campaign
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Amy: So the bad things, the bad side of s*x work, uh, I had a p*mp who wanted to make money off me. I refused. I told him to go to hell.
Amy: He tried to murder me. That's what that does happen in this world. I was very naive.
Willow: side. Yeah.
Amy: I was very naive not to think that people like that existed because I didn't come from the streets and I thought that was just the stuff of movies.
Amy: Nope. They do exist. And, and my me and my dumb ass, big mouth, I told the p*mp to go to hell, which was a bad idea.
Willow: mm.
Amy: Uh, and he became,
Leah: with you?
Amy: say again.
Leah: Was he violent? Like
Amy: Well, I never actually him online. No, I didn't know him.
Leah: oh. So explain this because this is a, I don't hear people talk about having pimps in the escort world, so I'd love to for you to
Leah: dive into that a little bit.
Amy: so it's an online version of the street thing. So he, uh, is [00:17:00] a, still a part owner tangentially through a Grand Cayman company called Treehouse Park. They all put it in shells through Romania, you know,
Amy: money here and Bitcoin there. Um, but it's called the eroticareview.com and his name is David Allens.
Amy: He goes by David Nen now trying to hide from his past. Uh, and he wanted y all of us to openly sell sex, which I first of all refused to do 'cause most of the people don't want sex. And when I did have sex, it was never because of money. It was who I wanted to also.
Willow: you wanted to.
Willow: Yeah.
Amy: And that's the only way it's legal. And he wanted you to like reduce it to sex acts for money, which I found isn't what a lot of people want.
Willow: Mm-hmm.
Amy: Where they do, it's fine, but that's not really the business I was in, and I'm not saying I'm better than anybody, but it wasn't. I was going to the skiing for a week with people and it was not the same thing. But he wanted you to sell sex. He wanted you to demand your clients to join his site, write reviews, which he would charge other people to read.
Amy: He had a searchable database of like men [00:18:00] could plug in, I want this sex act in this area code with this color hair and this height. And boom, here's your results of who you can hire. And actually, for a pimp, it's kind of genius. He was a very good computer coder and he, he built this searchable database of, of, uh, prostitutes, which, uh, and I didn't wanna be part of that.
Amy: Um, not only is that illegal, which, you know, one wants to avoid crimes. Uh, so I didn't want to be so reductionist, I didn't want people meeting me because of s*x for money, because. I don't see them as just a wallet. And I didn't want people who saw me as just a set of holes.
Leah: Right.
Amy: That's a fine business. Go to the brothels.
Amy: Do you? I didn't wanna be, so when I told David Elms, I'm not gonna be part of the erotic review, I'm not gonna tell my clients I don't want anything to do with you and your world and get fuck off. Um, he unfortunately lived near me in Los Angeles. That was bad luck.
Amy: Uh, and he became more and more obsessed.
Amy: So what he did was he bought my birth name, [00:19:00] the, my, the name on my passport and
Leah: Oh, like the URL,
Amy: Uh, yes. And he built a copy of my amytaylor.com website and he changed the text to out me, my address, my family,
Leah: Wow.
Amy: some very odd lies
Willow: must have been hell to
Amy: Yeah. Ruined my life. I lost my job. I lost the baseball boyfriend.
Amy: I miscarried my unborn son at 17 weeks, who I hope I.
Willow: that must have been a fucked up time. How old were you then? Were you in your
Amy: That was 2009. So also the great recession was happening. That was fun too. We were all good. It's a good time.
Leah: crash.
Amy: My family didn't speak to me for two years. Um, I, there was no business to be done either in oil that I had been working in after my MBA or in escorting or modeling. There was just nothing to do.
Amy: So I went to Arizona and I just flew every day. I added my commercial multi-engine and, and my instructor and instructor multi licenses and I just flew. 'cause it was a way to.
Willow: You got
Leah: Your life is fascinating. I'm sort of riveted about these chapters. Like you can really see, [00:20:00] like there was this chapter, there was a, there was a Bay area chapter then, then there was the LA chapter, and then there was the P*mp Gone Wrong chapter, and then there was the Love Affair with the baseball player chapter, and now there's the pilot chapter in Arizona.
Amy: Well, I had been flying for a hobby and it becomes a ludic. I had made some money. We took the oil company. It was very small. It was actually, uh, oil. It was a technology and oil company. We did some drilling, but mostly we did some of the primitive like wireless communication off the, off getting the data to the home base in Houston and la.
Amy: So anyway, we sold that, a company bought it. I didn't wanna move to Houston and work for them, so I took some stock, bought some real estate. I made more money off that than I ever did off of sex work. Um, yeah, it was good timing. Um, my boss did wanna date me, but he gave up after asking. It was typical. I've always worked in
Amy: fields full of men, uh, science and then aviation, and then oil, and then sex work. I've, I think the male gaze has been some kind of odd theme in life. I've benefited from it, and I've also suffered at the hands of it. I think
Leah: have friendships with men [00:21:00] been very easy for you versus friendships with women? Has it been pretty balanced?
Amy: You know, it's funny, when I was young, men were, you know. Always very predatory. Uh, they just wanna fuck you. It's biology and it's fine. It makes people, we need that drive. I don't hate the male sex drive. And we're also, you're never gonna get rid of it, so who cares if you hate it? Um, it's literally the most important thing there is to make other people.
Amy: So men are always gonna wanna fuck fertile women that are premenopausal and that is normal. Now I just turned 48, and like my friendships with women are so much better because women are not as threatened.
Amy: And men now are sometimes like on the street in Manhattan. They're just nice to me and they pet my dog and nice.
Amy: And then they don't hit on me.
Leah: Yeah.
Amy: I most will do. I'm good looking. Some men like older women and I'm a good looking older woman. I still got a great body
Leah: Well, yeah. You're gorgeous. So I imagine you've been a magnet for, um, male attention your whole life.
Amy: Yeah, it's, it's less now because about half of men or I'd have to. I'd have to think about the number, but there's a certain percentage of men who just want them, want you younger.
Amy: [00:22:00] And that's 'cause they still wanna make people and that's totally cool. Those men don't hit on me. But there is a
Leah: And young women are hot. I mean, you look at their little nubile bodies, it's, it's understandable. Yeah.
Leah: Better to celebrate it than to resent it. That's sort of my attitude.
Amy: I like it now. I can't wait for my old bog witch years and I'm gonna be like in my seventies on the Upper East Side with a bunch of tiny dogs and old lady friends and I'm just gonna go full bog witch and it's gonna be red. I
Leah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I kind of think that like sex is wasted on the youth as compared to who I am in my later forties, where I've, I'm more interested in sex than I ever was in my twenties. I'm more erotically inspired, um, than I was when I was younger. Uh, in my, I had so many more judgements and confusion and um, insecurities and body image stuff. It's really interesting to sort of watch the evolution of my own sexuality as I get older, and I often think God, if only had this when I was younger, I [00:23:00] would've had a lot more fun when I was younger.
Amy: Well, I watched your stuff about your background and what you've been through, and I'm, I'm so sorry for a lot of it. I didn't, I grew up with the opposite. No shame. Uh, Euro, Euro Trash Liberal Bay Area, California. Um, and yet I think we all should let ourselves have all the chapters. My old chap, my old lady chapter might be quite chased because I've done a lot of fucking, and it's
Leah: Right.
Amy: You, you have the right to check out the, I told you I've met a lot of, like a lot, three or four older men who lived in the South Christian conservative. They don't wanna die without experiencing stuff, but they can't be free to be honest, because they run businesses and they deal with people in their church.
Amy: If they tell the truth, they'll be pariah. I,
Leah: Right.
Amy: I don't fault them for lying. I wish they didn't have to. There's no good solution. They've got kids to feed. It is what it is. Their lying does damage to us. But on the other hand, they gotta survive too. Right? You can't, and I don't think they could fix things in Jackson, [00:24:00] Mississippi by being like, I love whores.
Amy: I don't
Willow: Yeah. That's probably not
Leah: Yeah, that's probably not the wisest, um, banner to hold
Leah: in those in that kind of culture. And I do have a lot of compassion for people who I see, who feel like if they were really true to their deepest desires, it would blow up their life. It would hurt the people that they very much care about. And so they're in this conflict of like choosing some sort of inner truth
Leah: versus, you know, hurting their loved ones.
Leah: And, and it costing them not just money, but money's on the fucking table.
Leah: And.
Leah: c careers and relationships with their kids. I mean, it could be a real mess. And I, and I, I hope for a world where we're not so divided, when people can be more liberated in, in what is inside of them
Willow: a lot. I feel like a lot of people in our generation now too are just opening up their, their like, they're not getting divorced, but they're like, Hey, let's just not be non-monogamous. Let's [00:25:00] just
Willow: open it up. And some are even, you know, not together, but they're still living in the same household and you know, they're not gonna unravel all that they've built together just because. Um, they're not sexually attracted to each other anymore, and they don't
Leah: No, but they're still attracted to pair bonding, right? It's like there's still this thing that we interweave with people that goes, I don't want this to end. And we're super siblings at this point, but we share so much, especially bank accounts and family members. Um, it's, it's interesting Willow that your more connected to the people who are choosing non-monogamy. Right. Which with a more conscious thing. I'm encountering people, especially in my work, you know, I've had a few recent, um, client students who are confessing that they wish they would've grown up in this previous, in, in this newest generation where they could be more open about the desire to be with trans women. Like they love the idea of this [00:26:00] feminine breast, this person that dresses up and feels like a woman, but still has a cock. You know? And, and it was really interesting to have three clients in a row confess this. And I'm the, I'm the only person they've ever told this to. Like, I just find. All of this so interesting, our deepest, darkest secrets around what we really want sexually. I imagine, Amy, that you were privy to a lot of secrets and things that people only admitted to you.
Amy: 80% of clients I've known have wanted to have sex with a transgender person. One joked, he's like, it's like a threesome, but it's all in one 'cause I get the boot. They're, very popular in sex work. Um, for a reason. There's, they're, they're, I mean, you know, the third gender, you go to Thailand or Fiji or many cultures have thought of them as like a magical thing.
Leah: Totally.
Willow: like
Amy: whether they had surgery or just lived a certain way, like we are not, we are ridiculous about binary.
Amy: I guess Americans can only count to two. It's [00:27:00] red or blue Republican, Democrat, like, we can't count to more than two. It's so dumb. It's so dumb.
Leah: That's hilarious.
Using Personal Trauma to Fuel Advocacy Work
---
Leah: That's
Willow: so when did you start doing advocacy work for sex workers? Tell us a little bit about your journey on that.
Amy: Well, when I got outed and I had nothing, my family came back after a couple years. I lied to my family because I wanted them to not have to deal with it. And it was better when they didn't know. I hated lying. It was stressful for me, but it was better for them.
Amy: They hate knowing. They love me, but it's very uncomfortable for them. They, they're glad that I'm in the sunset. They worry about me. My sister said, did you ever think that David Elms could have hurt us to get to you? And the truth is, I had not thought of that. I had not. Um, and so it's done damage to them, but they love me in spite of my choices, which is a grace I don't deserve and can't repay, and I'm grateful.
Amy: So we are a very tight family. He tried to destroy my family and he failed. Um, and so when I was outed. It is what it is. I lost job and banking and I've cobbled together a life. Banks are trying to be better to us, but they [00:28:00] get harm. They get attacked by the government if they give us banking. So sometimes they kick us out.
Amy: But Wells Fargo has tried to fight for us. They're San Francisco. They've been, they've been counterculture from the beginning of the Gold Rush era and
Leah: That's good to know.
Willow: Yeah. Interesting.
Amy: Chase has shut us down, be of, I mean, it's a nightmare for us. And housing, uh, I'm very fortunate not to have to rent, but I've been kicked out of housing.
Amy: Um,
Amy: getting a job is hard. Also, when people find out, the boss just tries to fuck you 'cause you're nothing but a whore to him forever. Even if you've quit, even if you've had one client for a decade.
Willow: mm-hmm.
Amy: Longer relationships than many marriages. Um, uh, you, it's something that you never escape. And so that's when I decided to do advocacy.
Amy: 'Cause I was like, I've paid the Piper. I'm gonna be branded with the Scarlet Letter forever. I might as well try to do some good so that if I can, and I don't know if I can, I thought the idea was. I've paid. I'm out. It sucks. I wish I wasn't. But if I can show that I'm a [00:29:00] human, and you probably know some, I mean, and you guys know, you know sex workers, but other people think they've never met one.
Leah: Right. Yeah. Yes, they have.
Amy: They only think it's the person in the truck stop on meth. They don't know that that chicken, their yoga class or at Whole Foods.
Willow: Right.
Amy: And that most of them just do it for a while. And they also do other things. They're pilots, they work in oil. They are, you know, I thought the idea was, if you could see me and hear me, it might make you think that you don't know everything and it might not you, but people would question what they think of us.
Amy: And, and I know tens of thousands of sex workers, but they won't talk to you 'cause they're not out of the closet. And. That's good. I hope they never get outed,
Leah: Yeah. There's good reasons to not be.
Amy: Oh, I wish. I wish I could still hide.
Leah: now when you got outed
Leah: and you had this traumatic experience. With, did you go back into sex work or did you, did that stop for you? Did you,
Amy: Yes. [00:30:00] So
Leah: sounds like you got other
Amy: happening. There wasn't really my clients, everybody was broke. We all our investments all went down and then they hobbled back up and yeah, when the baseball guy, he had a corporate job. He was retiring from baseball and getting into the corporate world and we didn't make it. The miscarriage was so hard on us.
Amy: He was scared of David Elms 'cause the, he got letters in the mail. You know, your girlfriend's a whore and I'm gonna tell everybody. He got scared of losing his job, he and his parents finding out what I had done. And so we didn't make it. And so yeah, I, uh, we broke up. I'm once again lonely. I'm now able to be a flight instructor and fly cargo.
Amy: Two things I did at different times to just build airtime. Um, and yes, a couple clients that I had known at this point for almost a decade were like, yeah, you want to go to Hawaii or you wanna go to Europe and see a soccer game and go to the Christmas markets in Germany and hey, extra income, why not?
Amy: And these are people I've known for
Leah: and they're friends now. Yeah. Yeah. They're like,
Amy: I was like, why would I not? I'm just gonna stay home. I've, I'm, everything [00:31:00] sucks. And so, yeah, it was just at that point, dating, it wasn't even at that point in my age and, and savings and income, it wasn't really about money, but hey, we all like money.
Amy: I like food and shelter. So, so yes, I did. I went back to it because I really didn't uh, have civilian, and then once you're branded and all of Google knows, uh, it turns out regular dating's pretty hard.
Willow: Mm.
Willow: Mm-hmm.
Amy: at what point do you tell a guy, Hey, guess what?
Willow: Mm-hmm.
Amy: So I think most, I know thousands of retired escorts who've dated their clients.
Amy: Many are married, many have kids,
Amy: some tried it and didn't make it got divorced, just like regular relationships.
Amy: Um, but I think, uh, it is kind of easier to date somebody who's either been a client or is otherwise non-judgmental because so much of the world will simply not date somebody like me. No matter how nice I am, they won't date me.
Willow: Mm-hmm.
Thriving in New York's Creative Scene
---
Willow: And so now you're living in
Willow: New York. What are you up [00:32:00] to these days?
Amy: I do a lot of broadcasting and a lot of modeling. There's tons of opportunities at Fort New York. I wanted to move here 20 years ago when I first, you know, these rich clients would either fly you here or meet you here 'cause everybody comes to New York. Many of them had homes around here or not.
Amy: Uh, and I fell in love with it a long time ago, like everybody does. Um, in a different way than la palm trees and sunshine that I also had fallen in love with. I wanted to experience living here, and I knew if I didn't do it now, I never will because my parents are aging and I will have to be back in California to help.
Amy: I can't leave it all to my sister, she'll kill me. Um, and I can't just like fuck off in New York and write checks. Right. That's like the shitty sibling thing to do, which, you know, it's kind of what I've been doing. My mom had surgery last year and I paid for things, but my sister spent all the time and I, I can't.
Amy: I can't just do that forever. It's, it's awful. So I will have to be in California, Northern California, somewhere again within a few years. Uh, if something happened to my parents tonight, I would plan the move tomorrow.
Amy: Um, so I [00:33:00] wanted, I didn't get to have kids. I didn't get to have a husband. I got my reputation ruined.
Amy: Honestly, not sorry for any of it, but I was going to treat myself to the experience of being a New Yorker for a few years.
Willow: Nice.
Amy: It is
Amy: every bit as fun as I thought it would
Willow: Yeah.
Willow: That's great.
Willow: And
Leah: what do you want now? Sorry, Willow.
Willow: Yeah. Where are you headed next?
Navigating Aviation Career with Heart Condition
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Amy: still, I want my health to hold up. I've, I've got the beginnings of some electrical heart problems, so I'll probably not be able to pass my class one for aviation,
Willow: Hmm.
Amy: at which point I'll have to just do class two or three and fly for fun, not for pay. Um, so that's coming, but hopefully not this year. Uh, EKGs, you know, I got a doctor who he, I take a little half a propranolol and drink no coffee and he can still print out a few pages of decent EKG to pass me for another six months.
Amy: Um, so as long as my health holds up, I'll fly. I'm adding my rotorcraft rating. I'm learning to fly helicopters, which is way harder than fixed wing.
Amy: Uh, the airspace in Manhattan is as insane as the roads and the ground. Um,
Amy: oh my god, it's[00:34:00]
Amy: so crowded and they're so quick here compared to Californians.
Amy: New Yorkers do not mess around.
Amy: And I sort of love it. I, I wish I had moved here a long time ago. I wish
Willow: uh, uh.
Amy: Um, I,
Amy: I winter elsewhere because the weather sucks in January, February, uh, and I will just continue to be a dog mom and healthy. And I work out and I'm a great neighbor and I'm a cliche aunt to my niece and nephew.
Why Finding Love as a Former Sex Worker Is Complex
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Amy: Um,
Leah: what about love and romance for you of these in this chapter?
Amy: you know. I date a little, it's not going well. Um, but I think there's a lot of forms of love. I don't think love just means a man that you live with.
Amy: You know, my grandmother, my dad's mom was a relatively famous photographer. She did war photography and photojournalism and animal rights photography. She was aggressively vegetarian and her work is archived in one of the national museums in a country in Europe for our family.
Amy: 'Cause they can keep it temperature controlled. It was film back in those days. It wasn't digital. Uh, she, she lived [00:35:00] to be 104. She just died a couple years ago. She never married anybody. My dad was the product of a boyfriend, so were his twin sisters. It was a long relationship, but I always liked her life.
Amy: She had more friends than anybody. She had projects until she was like 101.
Leah: Wow.
Amy: had fame and a little money, and. She wasn't gay. She liked men, but it just, she didn't center them. She, it was like one more part of her life if it was convenient or not. And I love men. I've enjoyed them. I still do, but I don't, when I get up in the morning, my dreams and goals, the first on the list is not, you know, find me a man.
Leah: Right.
Willow: Mm-hmm.
Amy: And, and that's probably 'cause they're from, this is so arrogant. I'm sorry, but they're like flies. They're everywhere. If I want. I just go outside and have a pulse.
Leah: Yeah.
Amy: I've gone outside and baggy clothes and no makeup in a, in a winter beanie, and I still get hit on. So like,
Willow: Mm-hmm.[00:36:00]
How Progressive States Are Changing Sex Work Laws
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Amy: don't chase air either, you know
Leah: So with our, with your advocacy work, I'm curious like where, because there's a lot of range, right? Politically, there's a lot of things that need to change. Where are you focused on? What are you passionate about, around what you're like fighting for, or, or
Amy: Yeah, so, um, I'm a little too mercurial. I'm an entertainer, right? I'm a clown. So my sister's in politics and there's some good legislators in Cal in very progressive California. It's always been the most compassionate state, and it has the muscle power. It's the, you know, it's a bigger economy than India.
Amy: So California will be the place that will drag, if it's possible, it will drag, uh, this country into the, a kinder future towards sex work. If that's, if that's ever possible, that's the only place they're really seriously talking about it and have the muscle to get it done. So she's in politics there. She stands up for us bravely.
Amy: She's gotten some, some shit about it, but. Um, and there's some, some legislators in the Bay Area, one guy in San Jose in particular, who's, who's [00:37:00] writing some bills that, you know, will get looked at and it's a slog. Um, I don't think it's gonna happen anytime soon, but the, we have models of countries and places.
Amy: New Zealand, Belgium just gave them maternal leave and in New Zealand, they can sue their customers if they don't get paid. And meanwhile here, they die in a ditch and nobody cares. Right. So we know it can be done better 'cause we have places it is. So it's not some mystery. It's like gun violence or health insurance.
Amy: We, healthcare, we, we know we can do better. It's the willingness to do better. And the problem, of course, is legislators are horrified by anybody who stands up and says that sex workers should be given legal status and, and rights and respect as the ca as is the case in other work. No one's willing to stick their neck out first, but I liken it to the battle that, uh, L-G-B-T-Q people had that everyone was too chicken shit
Amy: to say that gay people were just like us and just wanted love and rights and power of attorney when their spouse is in the hospital and all the other things. And [00:38:00] then once you reach a tipping point and it becomes more shameful to be an asshole,
Amy: then everyone, the tide swings the other way.
Amy: So the goal here is to humanize, the goal here is to be brave to not be shut up.
Amy: And there's, there's a lot of women, um. There's a woman named Caitlin who has an off-Broadway show. There's Mrs. Matisse in Seattle. There's Kristen D'Angelo who won a Can Film Festival award for the movie American Courtesans. There's Maggie McNeil. The, um, she's a beast fighting for our rights. Um, and, uh, if we, it's, it's the tipping point.
Amy: It has to become more shameful to, to believe that s*x workers are throwaway people who deserve everything. Awful. Than to believe they have rights. And once you change the culture, then you can change the laws. I think it is getting harder for people to simply say that we're subhuman. I get EI get hundreds of emails every week for people who've watched my stuff and been like, wow, you [00:39:00] know, I still maybe don't like what you do, but you're a human being.
Amy: I'm like, yeah, I'm, hello.
Amy: Um, so I'm not a legislator. I don't have that kind of power. I wish I'd gone to law school. Uh, we do have, Kate Aamo is a great lobbyist that fights for us. We're of course not allowed to unionize because we're not a legitimized industry. Um, but that would be great if we could form a union, have dues hire.
Amy: Spend more on lobbying.
Leah: Mm-hmm.
Amy: Um, but we're doing it in
Willow: of organization, you know,
Amy: SWAP is amazing. They have chapters everywhere. That's sort of the best We
Willow: Say it again.
Amy: uh, sorry, SWOP, sex Workers Outreach Project. Um, and there's chapters in every city. You can, folks, if you're watching this, you can Google swap it's swap.org or swap usa.org. Just google it.
Amy: You'll find the one near you.
Amy: Uh, they do great work. Swap behind bars helps women who've been incarcerated.
Amy: Um, and then there's a lot of messy, informal ways.
Undercover Police Stings and Criminal Records
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Amy: Like when my stalker came after me, the Phoenix Police Department helped me even knowing they didn't love what I did, [00:40:00] but they didn't think I should be killed.
Amy: And, and I got a stern lecture from them, but they saved my life. So, but I've also been arrested and the cops in Orange County, California messed up my life and gave me a criminal record that has prevented me from get housing, getting housing and jobs for the rest of my life. So it's messy,
Amy: like all things.
Leah: that?
Amy: Yeah, that was my third client. He was a cop.
Leah: okay.
Amy: Yeah, I was do green. Uh, he was really nice. He said he owned a scuba diving shop in Huntington Beach, California. And that wasn't true. Uh,
Amy: and he was super nice. We had a great time until we didn't and he was so gross. Tom Giffen, Hey, fuck you, Tom.
Leah: fuck you,
Willow: How, how did you
Amy: Tom's in consulting now with his nice cushy retirement.
Amy: And look, I don't even think he believed in what he was doing because. Uh, as they're arresting me and telling me I'm in grad school. Right. And they didn't believe I was until they found out, oh shit, she's really a grad student and they offered me like a minimum wage cleaning job to rescue me from sex work.
Amy: Yeah.
Leah: Oh,
Willow: Oh, my God.
Amy: Not gonna help me.
Willow: now how [00:41:00] did he, how did he find you? Like how did you guys meet?
Amy: uh, you know, he answered my ad and we talked twice on the phone and planned a date and we had a lovely evening un until they busted through the door and threw me on the floor and handcuffed me in my underpants and, yeah.
Leah: So it was a sting operation.
Amy: Oh yeah, he was really cute. I was very much ready to have a nice date and maybe, maybe physical stuff.
Amy: I'm horny, I'm human, and he was nice. And yes, if he helped me out with grad school, that would be nice.
Amy: Um, uh, he wanted me to date his rich brother in Newport Beach. After that, he's like, was trying to.
Willow: the arrest.
Amy: Yeah, I don't even know if that was a real person or if he was still lying 'cause he was such a liar.
Amy: But if there was a rich brother, I was like, you're trying to pimp me to your brother. Like what? No thank you sir. He was a full psycho and he was very good. He arrested a lot of my colleagues 'cause he was, that dude should have gone to Hollywood and acted 'cause he was a full socio, like a fucking sociopath,
Amy: which is why he was so good at his job.
Amy: Um, he was a, he was a better actor than most I've seen on film.[00:42:00]
Leah: Now are you seeing, um, police target sex workers still today? My understanding is that they're really only targeting you if they get a complaint. Um, they're less looking for sex workers, more looking for Johns. What's, what's your understanding
Amy: mean, I think, I think it's like a speeding ticket. If you're speeding on the freeway and they get you, it's really not that personal. You're just the one they got. It's stochastic. It's just luck draw. Now, you know, we're pattern seeking humans with our brains. We always like to look for patterns. I've, I've known older women, younger women, arrested, high end, low end.
Amy: I don't see in my over 20 years of experience I haven't seen, but I'm not privy to if there were, I don't think there were complaints about me. I was brand new and the only reason they got me was I was too dumb to know how to screen. And frankly, the upside was it taught me a painful lesson. It taught me that people can lie.
Amy: I didn't know that people would give you a fake name and a fake job because I would've never, like, I mean, I, I came from a world in which when somebody told you who [00:43:00] they were, that's who they were. So, um, very naive, right? Uh, but it did teach me that people lie. And that probably saved my life later, right?
Amy: Because forever after that, I did not trust, which was a tough lesson to learn,
Leah: Mm-hmm.
Amy: to not trust people. I think we all learn that at, in some way. As we age, we get a little bruised and battered by life.
Amy: And, uh, and I think they're just doing their job. They're tasked with a mandate, um, to, to, and it doesn't work.
Amy: It doesn't get rid of sex work. In fact, you catch an expensive case and now you need another 25 grand. So the last thing you do is quit, Right.
Amy: Is now you need all this money. Um, I borrowed it from a client and I did pay him back because it was important to me to pay him back. And I, you know, it all got dismissed and stuff.
Amy: He did some things he shouldn't have done physically, so. No, but they expected contrition. They expected to slut shame you as a woman and you'd show up in court and that you'd, you know, be want to, I don't know, find Jesus and [00:44:00] be a virgin again or whatever the fuck they
Willow: just so wild to me, like how, how very not far we have. You know how not far this industry has come since like the 1700 / 1800 hundreds you know, the Courtesans and in, um, did you guys ever watch Dangerous Beauty, the Courtesan
Willow: situation over in, uh, in Italy? And just like how, you know, not that not that much has really shifted or changed.
Amy: We don't like slutty women. Uh, it.
Willow: I feel like it's because of the power that, that a woman has who's in her sexual power, who, who knows her Shakti, who knows how to wield her sexual
Willow: energy. It's just, it's so powerful.
Amy: women think that you are giving away your power and that you would have more power as a woman if we all held sex from men and controlled them with it. That's what the sort of. Chased virginal. Usually s women,
Amy: they actually think we are get [00:45:00] losing power. Uh, I disagree, I disagree. But they think the power is in denying men's sex and using it as a, as a bargaining chip to get marriage.
Amy: And then you get, it's just sex work too. They get the marriage, they get.
Willow: Transactional.
Leah: very transactional. It, it just depends on what you, it's like a, it's like where you place the value
Willow: Yeah. You know.
Leah: for centuries we place the value on this made up thing called virginity.
Willow: And before all of this sort of like patriarchy came to power, sexuality was a, it was this, it was such a sacred thing. It was, it was a cleansing thing. Like actually people would have to go through sacred sexual rights before they got married so that they could be cleansed and purified
Leah: Or so they could be good at it,
Willow: Yeah, both
Leah: you know, and they would come back from war and they would have to visit the temple, the sexual temples, in order to cleanse, to be fit for society again, because they just saw all this combat. I mean, can you imagine if we could love our warriors [00:46:00] sexually back to wholeness so that they could be, you know, safe again in their own minds,
Leah: in, in, in the brutality that they faced.
Leah: I mean, sex is kind of
Willow: Yeah.
The Unexpected Healing Touch Men Secretly Crave
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Willow: Tell us a little bit about like the healing that you have seen happen with this work. I.
Amy: Almost all men's number one desire is for more physical touch. And I don't even mean just sexually.
Leah: right?
Amy: Most men don't get hugged and touched as much as women, and that's because of toxic masculinity. It's changing. But, um, I have had men cry because I just scratched their back gently.
Willow: Mm-hmm.
Amy: I have known, I mean, and they do this to themselves.
Amy: You know, because they benefit from being manly and stoic and wildy, blah. All the things we know. Um, but yes, I have seen, I've met a lot of men whose wives don't wanna fuck them. Their wives gave him the good stuff for a year and then got the ring and I'm, you know, I've had wives call me and be like, yeah, I faked it.
Amy: And I never, never even liked him, but I got the right, [00:47:00] the house and the kids and I got him and now I'm gonna take half. And I was like, you know, you're just a less honest sex worker, honestly. Uh. I don't know why some people dislike sex. I've, I've talked to women who say it's painful. There's some stuff going on in menopause with walls, thinning and wetness issues.
Amy: HRT has been a godsend for a lot of aging women. Not all aging women get that some aging women are hornier than ever, and so I would argue that some of that might be psychological or just the vari natural variance in humans. I don't think we know, we don't talk a lot about menopause. I've met a lot of men whose wives
Amy: I've hit the mid fifties, late fifties, and they just won't fuck them
Leah: They're done. They don't want anything to do with sex anymore.
Amy: I would argue a lot of times it's 'cause the wife knows her husband's a cheating fuck and she doesn't wanna fuck him anymore 'cause she's mad at him and, but then he cheats more because he is like, I'm starving for sex. So it's a, it's a problem.
Amy: Opening marriages. Yeah. Everyone in New York's a swinger now because they've realized it's the only way they can survive for 60 years of marriage. And [00:48:00] honestly, my girlfriends also wanna fuck other people they love, they love their husband, but you know, same food every night, all that. Uh, or they don't. I know one who she's real mad at her husband, she likes to date other guys, but they got little kids and they don't wanna custody and all that nightmare.
Amy: Anyway, there's the reasons are as diverse as people themselves, but yes, the healing. Look, everyone has a sexual ego. Women do too. You know, ask any woman when she feels like she's the, the throat, eight or 3000 blowjob goddess. She feels kind of like a badass. Like we all have sexual ego, the compersion that is very normal and it's not a bad thing.
Amy: So yes, when men think that they are desired sexually, they get real happy. And that's
Leah: Yeah.
Amy: that's not something hate women do too. And so,
Leah: We all wanna feel desired.
Leah: Even if we don't desire to have sex, it still feels good
Leah: when someone desires to have sex
Leah: with you.
Amy: for sure. And so they don't get pursued for sex as much. You [00:49:00] know, some of that's mechanical clits on the outside. The same thing that makes them come isn't typically what makes, you know, 95% of women come and that's a design flaw.
Amy: I guess. God has a six sense of humor for putting our junk on the outside.
Amy: And we know there's G-spot. We know there's all the outliers, but not most women. It's the clit. Right. And. Most women, the penis doesn't do much for that. So, you know, again, design flaw. I don't know why it was engineered this way. I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't in charge.
Amy: So, um, this, I think a lot of men have this fantasy that. Their cocks could be as desirable as women's bodies tend to be, especially if we're young and pretty or whatever.
Amy: Um, and they don't really get to be chased. Like most men will tell you a story of like the two or three times in life that they were really pursued by a woman for sex.
Amy: And they will remember that forever and most women have 25,000 of those stories and don't remember them.
Amy: Uh.
Leah: isn't that interesting?
Amy: A lot of men like sex work because it's the one [00:50:00] time they can get laid when they want to, when they're horny on demand with what they want. The brothel lineup thing or the internet version of that where they get on sites and kind of go shopping. The illusion of choice, even though it's not really true, other people have consent and they can't just have everything they're looking at.
Amy: Uh, they, and they still have to be a nice, normal person. You don't, you can't just, but the illusion of choice is something that not a lot of men ever get to experience and that's very seductive to them, to, it's why they like strip clubs. They go and it's like, oh, I can be the one selecting for once in my life.
Amy: Right.
Willow: Mm.
Leah: transactional part of it feels safer than having to be in an emotional relationship. That could be complicated, that could create more risk. It's like, it's like it's a lesser risk.
Leah: This type of shopping.
Amy: The high
Leah: shopping.
Amy: they usually want the illusion of emotion.
Amy: They wanna think you really like them for more than the money. That probably is just their desire to alleviate guilt. They don't wanna think like, she hates me, but she needed money and so I'm, I'm an abuser [00:51:00] that
Leah: that, and I have to pay for sex, which means women won't fuck me. I have to pay for it. Women won't fuck me without
Leah: it. So a lot of men are trying to manipulate out of that dynamic. There's like a subconscious thing that doesn't like that women won't fuck 'em unless they paid for it.
Leah: So
Amy: work is work movement is that a lot of men don't want the sex work. They don't even like the term because that implies that they are work, which is makes them feel bad.
Amy: I would argue society shaming clients contributes to this. If it was normal for people to sometimes pay for sex on demand, which is a world most people can't even imagine, even where it's legal, it's still stigmatized.
Amy: You're right. They feel shame for paying for sex because that implies the person doesn't really want them. I don't know why I, I joked once with a client, I was like, I could be mad that you, that if I didn't look like this and I didn't suck and fuck that, nobody would date me in civilian dating either.
Amy: They all want sex on tin and matched. That's what they're there for.
Leah: I just think people should have some kinky, like let's have [00:52:00] a kink around paying for sex, and then you can really get off on it and really like there's so much more positive impact when you can just kink out on it.
Amy: Just lead with what you have to offer. I was never mad at the fact that men usually wanted to fuck me. I could be mad about that and be like, oh, if I didn't fuck 'em, they wouldn't date me. Yeah, that was probably true. They probably wouldn't have, they'd go find one who would? Right. But you can be either mad about that or you can lead with what you have to give.
Amy: And I've known a lot of rich men who are very happy to give women money. One of them once said, he's like, I love knowing that you have a safe apartment, you have clothes you like, you can take care of your dog. He's like, and also my kink is that it's a flex. I can do more for you than other guys can do.
Amy: So they can't have you.
Willow: Ah, there you
Leah: And it it, it inspires that protector provider instinct that is also hardwired in the biology. So I've got, I've got one final question. It's possible Willow, it does two.
Brutally Honest Advice for Women Considering Sex Work
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Leah: And this question is what advice would you [00:53:00] give someone who wants to break into the sex worker space, what would you, what would you, with your experience, what would you, what advice do you have?
Amy: Honestly, I would tell them don't even if you survive it. Uh, like I sort of have, I guess we'll find, I guess we'll see when it's totally over. But in these sunset years, I could say I've pretty much survived it. Un scathed for sure. But hey, I would say don't get digital skills. Get a remote job. Live all over the, it's easier.
Amy: Honestly, society makes this too hard.
Amy: Okay, that's it. If you are hell bent on this, do a lot of research. There's a million YouTube channels, there's podcasts, there's Instagrams. You could try emailing successful women to help you, all the information's out there, there's books and shows, um,
Amy: The bad stuff is incredibly rare. 99% of it's just literally just dating. It's actually pretty boring and fun.
Amy: And so you will spend a lot of time preparing for something that hopefully will never happen.
Amy: but for real, if you're hell bent on this, you know, benchmark, those who are out there, there's some great Canadian escorts with [00:54:00] YouTube channels that teach you everything.
Amy: 'cause they can, they have legal rights to speak out. But, um, but honestly, I would say don't.
Leah: Mm-hmm. Okay.
Willow: it. Well, that's advice from Amy Taylor
Willow: who has been through quite a lot, has been through pretty much all of it.
Amy: not, it's not been boring. It's not been boring.
Willow: It's not been boring. Yeah.
Amy: And thanks for the work you guys do in the healing space. Uh, I don't know where we're not qualified to or equipped to do the extensive coaching and things you guys do with, with people's hearts on the inside, we're sort of just the entertainment fund like a movie, and that's fine.
Amy: That's a fine thing to do, but I love the work you're doing with people's hearts and souls. That's really great work.
Willow: mm Thank you.
Leah: Amy. Thank you so much for being on the show and sharing your experience and being so candid about it. We
Willow: And so vulnerable. Yeah, it's fantastic. Super helpful.
Leah: where can people find you?
Amy: Yeah, I'm on _*www.AmyTaylor.com.*_ [00:55:00] Um, out there, if you guys, some of it's just, just modeling stuff if you wanna, or, but sometimes my, my ramblings and thoughts, um, are out there. So say hi. If you guys feel like it.
Willow: Love it. Thanks, Amy.
Leah: Yeah. Okay. Everybody stay tuned because the dish is up next.
The Dish with Leah & Dr. Willow
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Announcer: Now our favorite part, the dish.
Leah: Mm-hmm.
Willow: Well, that was a fascinating conversation. I mean, so what a, what a story, what a life, what a trajectory. She went on and all in, all in the name of like seeking security, financial security, and, and safety, and quite a rollercoaster with that.
Leah: Yeah, she, her story's kind of like the nightmare story. I know you, it's a rare, that's a rare
Leah: Yeah, like that's the usually hear that Everything you, you would, that would totally scare you off from touching this.
Willow: industry. Yeah.
Willow: Yeah, Yeah, like kind of the opposite of, you know, when we, when I was sort of moving in towards what I would call the sexual [00:56:00] arts, um, you know, these are things that would've stopped me in my tracks.
Leah: You know, like the idea of having a potential pimp could destroy your life and smear your name and threaten, I mean, that guy was out to ruin her life and he did for a while. Like, that is fucked up.
Willow: Hen never really even met her.
Leah: Yeah, like I,
Willow: Just picked her out of the crowd.
Leah: I watched a documentary, I wonder if it's the same guy. I watched a documentary about
Willow: Well, the erotic
Leah: that got murdered. Yeah.
Willow: big review site for For Tanika?
Leah: Oh, really?
Leah: Okay then it's
Willow: the erotic review is like a pretty, um, pretty well known site where a lot of people, whether they're doing full body sensual massage, se, escort, tantra or whatever, are they, they want reviews on there. People do, who are working because they, um, because men go and look at that
Leah: Yeah, it's why I don't ever put myself on sites that, [00:57:00] um, are pursuing reviews. Like, I think it was a red book back in the day,
Leah: uh, which was really big in the Bay Area. Like that's just gross to me. Like, I don't want people talking about their sensual experience with me. It feels like such locker room and the way that they talk about is very locker room.
Leah: I don't know. That always threatened me. And, and so I never pursued that kind of, uh, websites.
Willow: Yeah, it's very interesting.
Leah: like that. And it sounds like she didn't like it either and, and
Willow: She never even got got into it never was a part of
Willow: it. It just shut it down. Yeah.
Leah: I think it's tricky when you promise certain sex acts,
Leah: you know, but, and not to judge anyone that has formulated their business in such a way.
Leah: I mean, that that can work and I'm, it makes it very transparent what someone can expect.
Leah: I just find it puts a lot of, I imagine it put a lot of pressure on your own body.
Willow: exactly. Because you don't know until you're in the moment what you wanna do or not
Willow: do. You know? And we both know people who are primarily [00:58:00] Dakini's
Willow: doing tantra work, not having, you
Willow: know,
Leah: service. Yeah. I
Willow: full service Yeah.
Willow: Who sometimes are with some, a client who they, you know, who they really are enjoying and they do it because they want to, in that case, not for
Willow: an exchange of income.
Leah: Yeah. Yeah. And oftentimes, so, so there's different, I mean, just for those people who don't know, um, there are people in the sexual arts. I just like that. Regardless of what you offer, I put it all under that umbrella. And there's some people, especially in I think the tantra world where full service is less, um.
Willow: Expected.
Leah: Yeah. Yeah. It's not something that is always offered though. Some people do offer it, and when I say full service, that usually means, um, not just touch and arousal with hands. It might include mouths, it might include penetration with, you know, vaginal sex, anal sex, whatever the case may be. Um, and that's a [00:59:00] good fit for some people who offer it.
Leah: Uh, most people don't. In the tantra space would be my, is my estimate.
Willow: And even in, in, in dominatrix and BDSM, most people are not,
Willow: they're more just like playing with sexual energy.
Willow: Playing with erotic edges and levels in, in ways that are shame free and judgment free. There's a lot of, there's so much, still so much repression and so much taboo around sexuality that there's parts of our psyche that don't ever get a chance to see the sunshine.
Willow: And so in a controlled environment, a transactional environment that has parameters, that has boundaries that both people understand and know what the boundaries are, it's safer to explore those edges of your psyche. And that's the beautiful. The beauty of it. That's the, that's sort of the healing and the, and the [01:00:00] becoming more whole within yourself of it all. And, um, it's a, it's a tremendous service that people are providing, not just women, but men as well. There. I, I, there's actually a, a male that I wanna get on our show pretty soon here, um, who does work with all genders and, um, you know, is doing lots of healing work in the sexuality world and just having so much fun.
Willow: And I think, I think that there's like, you know, we all grow up in this culture, in this society that like work has to be hard, work has to be, you know, a lot of work. And there's also jobs out there, careers out there, paths out there that can be a lot of fun and can be a lot of pleasure. And this is one that can be that and that, you know, and as you know, if you're stepping into it, it can, it can bring up a lot of personal stuff as
Leah: Yeah, it, it often does. It's rare when it doesn't, you know, you have to face, you know, your own fears and shame and [01:01:00] conditioning around what sex work is to you.
Leah: And there's a lot of people who don't like that word sex work. You know? They don't identify that even though they're working with people's arousal and shifting their systems with arousal.
Leah: And there are a lot of sexuality places that you can explore your healing and your awakening in the sexual realms that you can do so without exposing yourself to STIs. I think that's one big concern that people have is like, you know, how do you keep your body safe and therefore keeping your partner safe if you have relationships outside of your sex work.
Leah: Those are all things that have to be confronted. You know, I grew up thinking that prostitution was, you know, people who were really suffering and that was their only option. And that's not, that's not true. I don't think that's ever been true. That's one section of sex work. But there's a whole nother department of sex work that, uh, is completely different from that.
Leah: These are, um, mentally well, healthy people who are [01:02:00] not suffering. Who feel very rewarded
Leah: by their work in sexuality and working with people's bodies and shifting people's systems. That's what I think the real power of sex work has for folks. Whether that's BDSM, whether that's tantra, whether that's even escort work.
Leah: Um, something deeper is happening when we meet people, uh, in our sexuality. And, um, it's interesting.
Breaking Sex Work Industry Stereotypes and Realities
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Leah: I don't think that's true for everyone, and I didn't really get the sense that that was true for Amy. I sounded like with Amy, you know, she really embraced the entertainment aspect of sexuality. Um, it was interesting and makes sense that it's like this is a, this is like dating, but you get paid for it.
Leah: And I think when you have the privilege of beauty, which Amy truly has, I mean, she, what a babe, you know, like, um, that's someone who will do really well. Someone who's not as physically beautiful, probably can't get the same kind of dollars that I imagine Amy was [01:03:00] able to get .
Willow: I don't know if that's totally true, because I know some people in the industry who are not the
Willow: typical gorgeous, you know, with the eyes and the lips on the cute little nose, you know? Um, but they are doing really well. So I do think there's, there's personality, there's skill level. Um, yeah, having, having good looks in a nice body should
Leah: that's why I think going on the teacher track is a place where when you don't feel as confident about your sexual attraction, whether that's because you have issues with your body image or you don't think you're as, as classically beautiful,
Leah: um, there's lots of ways to still engage and be very rewarded in this work.
Leah: I think for me, I certainly felt that way. Um, I was always a little insecure about what people would think they, if they, when they opened, when I opened the door. Um, and so there's ways that you can use education. Um.
Willow: Isn't that funny y'all, that Leah thinks that people would open the door and be dissatisfied with her gorgeousness.
Leah: Well, like [01:04:00] I remember like I
Willow: that we think about ourselves,
Leah: yeah.
Willow: as women, and this is such a, you know, this is such a, um. Oh, it's so
Willow: deeply ingrained and deeply embedded, you
Willow: know, just, and, and as we get older into our forties and fifties and sixties, it's like we're just hanging on to this, um, this look and this youth.
Willow: And I think there's so much beauty in aging. Like,
Willow: let's actually allow the aging to unfold before us and step into it with confidence. And there's a wisdom, like what you were saying in the interview Leah, about like you wish you'd known then what you know now. Like the
Willow: knowledge, the experience, the well seasoned practitioner, there's a lot to be said for that.
Leah: Yeah, the embracing of one's own erotic nature because you've discovered so much about it and then you, we have so much more to explore. So much more is on the table. Um, and when you give yourself permission within your own system, that's a [01:05:00] mirror for people to give themselves their own permission. To sort of explore this part of our humanity.
Leah: I mean, my God, when I think about all the stress we endure day to day, that we have this built in system in
Willow: clear it all.
Leah: Yeah. To like really embrace these opportunities to flood our system with beautiful hormones
Willow: Yes. Bring
Leah: that give us relief.
Willow: Vitamin O, everybody. Get some.
Leah: So, so really, really, really interesting story. I can't help but feel like some of it's very tragic.
Leah: You know, I felt sad when her advice was Don't do it.
Willow: Yeah.
Willow: It, it, it, yeah. I mean, I'll be honest, it kind of hit me in a, in a, in a way,
Willow: you know, and um, and the, the, I think there's, so there's just as many different experiences on this path of professionalism as there are on every other path of
Leah: True. They all have their complications.
Willow: [01:06:00] And everyone's gonna have a different experience.
Willow: And so I think the most important thing is really like stay true to your own experience. What is it that is feeling like alignment and truth inside of your system? Moment to moment, be able to discern that. Be able to keep your finger on the pulse of that and just listen and you, and you won't go awry.
Leah: also have community. I mean, you know, we, there's so many do's and don'ts that, um, I discovered and I'm so glad I had mentors who I could learn from,
Leah: um, so that I could create and own and really make strong my yeses and my nos. This is, this is where I'll meet people, and then this is where I'm not available.
Leah: To meet people and some of their needs. And I think having that really curated
Leah: and knowing you can always change it and evolve it.
Leah: But um, yeah, I, my advice would be different for people who might be starting out in the sexuality world. And I think part of that is really [01:07:00] cultivating going slow,
Willow: Mm-hmm.
Leah: you know?
Leah: But you do, you have to make it your own. It has to feel right.
Willow: It has to feel right.
Willow: and that includes knowing your value,
Willow: you know, and charging what, what is right for you,
Willow: even if it's above and beyond what everyone else is charging.
Leah: And you'll make mistakes and you'll learn from that and, and you'll continue to cultivate and hopefully not be discouraged. Um,
Leah: uh, oh, there was, oh, there was something else I found really interesting about the conversation is this.
Can Sex Workers Have Successful Relationships?
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Leah: Having a relationship and having the work and how much of a rub that is for so many women in this industry.
Willow: Mm-hmm.
Leah: if I have the work, I can't have the relationship. If I have the work, I can't be a mom. You know, this, these two opposing things. And, and one of the last trainings I did, they really sort of explored that this relationship between, you know, the wife dynamic archetype and the cortisone and having them have a conversation, you know, having the, the mother.
Leah: Archetype and having a conversation with the whore. Um, [01:08:00] having the modern woman that says, this is what you don't do if you wanna be a liberated woman. And then the submissive, and having a conversation about that, that inside archetype of the submissive inside your system. And I think it's really worth exploring in the sex space for
Leah: um, Courtesans and sex workers so that they can really determine what's really blocking them subconsciously, if they have two opposing desires, how can you have it, how can you have both?
Leah: And, uh, that would be an interesting conversation in, in sort of a classroom space for people who are wrestling with that.
Willow: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, that sort of aspecting practice is, is valuable no matter what your opposing parts of yourself are,
Leah: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Willow: are struggling with.
Willow: So check it out, try it sometime.
Leah: let us know what you think about this conversation and uh, in the comments. And thanks for being such loyal listeners. We love you.
Announcer: Thanks for tuning in. This episode was [01:09:00] hosted by Tantric Sex Master Coach and positive psychology facilitator, Leah Piper, as well as by Chinese and Functional Medicine doctor and Taoist Techology teacher, Dr. Willow Brown. Don't forget your comments, likes subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.
