What is the Sacred Spot Massage? Sexpert-on-sexpert with Charles Muir

Leah: Well, it is my great pleasure to bring to you today, Charles Muir.

Charles: Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah: One of the founding Tantra Fathers in the USA for the last, what, 45 years Charles you've been a little wandering Tantra Sadu spreading the art conscious loving to all of us?

Charles: 45 years, and before that, a yoga teacher for 12 years.

Leah: Yeah. Charles is the originator of the Sacred Spot Massage. So if you have heard about G-Spot Massage or Sacred Spot Massage, he has put this stamp on what we know about it today. And has really turned this whole idea of G-Spot massage. And identified  Sacred Spot Massage and turned it into a healing modality so that we all can experience sexual healing in our bodies and to live a more embodied life. Welcome Charles.

Willow: You know, Charles is such a pioneer.

He really is. He's like the grandfather of Tantra in the West.

It's such an honor and a pleasure to be here with you, and many of our interviewees have been your students, including both Leah and I. So yeah, such a treat to have you, Charles, welcome.

Charles has been one of my main teachers since I was just a little Tantra puppy at 24 years old and getting my certification. And, he's been just an incredible mentor and a personal friend, family member and ex-fiance. And one of my best friends. I'm honored that you said yes to being a part of the podcast and the summit.

Charles: I'm honored.

[00:01:45] How Sacred Spot Massage came to be.

Leah: Charles, I would love for you to kick off this interview by sharing how a sacred Spot came to be? Can you tell us a little bit about the early stories of your experience with the Sacred Spot and how you turned it into a curriculum and a path for healing?

Charles: Well, I learned early on to listen to women, even if I couldn't understand what they were saying. But I ran into a woman, a Shakti woman, a powerful woman who simply said, if you aim there or you push here, right there, amazing things would happen. And they did. I was a New York yogi and she was a Wild California therapist.

I immediately tried that with every woman I was with from then on and saw, gee, it's really a varied response of what happens here, including things you wouldn't expect to happen while you're expecting to be giving pleasure.

Like you've had experiences. For suddenly feelings to come up or communications that make no sense or are historically incorrect even. Pain can come up. Recollections of past traumas a woman has experienced, and always the big three emotions, guilt, fear, and shame are locked in what Tantra Yogi is called the second chakra.

And the second chakra includes the external apparatus of the vagina, the lips, the internal, and places inside. So I started sharing it. I mean, I shared it with all my lovers and I watched a process unfold of greater sensitivity. A process of coming alive, of increased creativity, and a great empowerment in the woman I was sharing with.

So when I went into Tantra teaching, I said, I'm gonna share this. There wasn't yet a G spot.

Leah: It wasn't popularized, like, no dr. Grafenberg was on the scene?

Charles: It was still all clitoris all of the time. Uh, even though Freud way back said there's something inside and a type of energetic experience orgasm that is very different than clitoral.

It takes a certain cultivation to awaken it. Of course, they called it an immature clitoral orgasm. And this was a mature woman who activated this powerful experience of vaginal orgasm. Experiences cause there are a hundred of them.

So I was a yogi and I knew about the male sacred spot. It was an area that was used in Ejaculation control and to send the energy that you co-create making love to a woman, you're able to send your energy back to where it came from, All of the other Chakras. And it opened new pathways to the receptive female right hemisphere of the brain. So I just postulated that this is physically, geographically this is the same area for a woman, though. It's inside.

[00:05:46] Using the classroom to test his Sacred Spot Theory

Charles: And putting two and two together I shared it. It worked in every class. I would get these incredible students. a lot of hippies, a lot of psychologists.

Leah: Probably, I got a massage therapist?

Willow: Yeah. Lots of healers.

Charles: Later, later on. But in the beginning it was a lot of therapists and a lot of hippies, yogis, people that had heard about Tantra and they were like Guinea pigs.

I created an exercise. I created a crash course I could give men that could geographically get them in the area. And this is an area of erectile tissue and a variety of strokes. I spent many, many years doing massage professionally and getting certifications. So I put with it my understanding of the quality of touch and energy work and created a class that somehow the women could trust their man, if they were a couple.

And singles, Saturday night after starting Friday at seven, being together for four hours, going to lunch, doing a couple of meditations, and then the women decide, Can I trust one of these guys to hold the spot the way Charles is saying?

Precious, tender, not to make it do anything, not to make it have an orgasm, but to bring the woman's awareness to this area and hook her up to the right hemisphere of her brain, which yields a very emotional type of orgasm. And can stir up blocks to one's free flowing joyful emotions, because energy is trapped in the second Chakra itself in the psyche of the physical energy body, where they meet.

So every Sunday morning, you've been there, people come in with these incredible stories. There are a lot of these stories printed on our website, www.SourceTantra.com of these transformational events that happen in one session. I ask him to do a session, break it into three rounds of a half hour each.

Some people spend hours, some people don't go to sleep that night. I've followed the fountain of youth. This is the most of amazing...

Leah: I never need to sleep again!

Willow: That's by far my favorite moment of your three day offerings is Sunday morning when everyone's sharing. Like, what they went through the night before and the authenticity that comes through.

I remember my first time sitting for three days. I was like, this is the candy I've been looking for and just eating it up. Love that.

Leah: That is adorable. This is the candy I've been looking for.

Charles: Sunday morning is great Candy. Saturday night is the ultra dessert.

Willow: Ultra dessert. Super chocolate-fied.

Leah: It's the main dish, baby.

Charles: Doing it, talking about it, hearing others breakthroughs, or the challenges they face and making it through them.

That's sweet, but having the experience and more so making this a practice.

Willow: Yeah.

Charles: Bringing it into one's life as a part of the teamwork of being a couple. Of wanting, as a couple, to make the two energies more one, more connected, more bonded.

And the deepest practice I know is bringing one's bodies in the closest possible proximity to one's partner and doing the techniques of Tantra.

Of adding, breathing,adding the meditative mind, adding understanding of energy when you touch someone. It ain't just going into a spot and poking it.

It's really bringing consciousness, providing conscious touch, and having an understanding that this hand doesn't have the night off. This hand allows you to energetically complete a circuit and many of the hand positions have to do with the head.

The forehead, the top of the head, the back center of the brain, to rewire the person's experience of what their brain allows them to feel while they're receiving the sexual touch. With maybe for the first time, that touch isn't to make the woman come or to make her interested in making you come, it's about awakening. And healing becomes part of the awakening.

[00:11:06] In 20 Years, Leah never asked Charles this Question:

Leah: So for clarification, you're talking about an exercise where you're separating the roles of giver and receiver. And you're not including sexual intercourse. being penetrated with fingers, digital stimulation to the genital region of a woman, in this case.

And I'm wondering, like, I don't think I've ever asked you this in the 20 years I've known you, which is like, is it possible there's questions I haven't asked Charles yet? And I just found one. And that is, how did you come up with this idea and the process of separating the roles of giver and receiver?

Can you share a little bit about where that came from?

Charles: It came from my awareness that in order for this thing to happen, we had to bring two partners, or two people that didn't know each other into a state of harmony and intention.

When you go to a peace meeting, someone makes the first offer, and I convince the men, look, we owe them one. We've used them, we've gotten off on them. If we can bring the olive branch tonight, then in the next class, the woman will learn the skills of addressing you in ways that involve great pleasure to his favorite chakra, but also healing to the emotions that are stuck in that second chakra.

Charles: Because every time that a man got an erection and a woman said no, for whatever reason, even if she says it nicely, of course I just need to go to the restroom for a minute and then she disappears. Men close down a little bit.

The second chakra's energy, which reflexes to the heart chakra, they're both negatively charged energy polls. And men close down their heart and only later do they start closing down their sexual energy if they've rejected enough.

So we come with this offering. I don't want anything for me. My penis has the night off. Anytime it's gonna be a tantra, a source tantra awakening / healing session it automatically means it's not gonna be a sexual session. Now, every time you touch the sacred spot, it doesn't have to be a healing session. It can be used as part of sexual sharing and foreplay and getting the juices flowing.

[00:13:46] Sexual Healing as a Tantra Practice

Charles: But a session, that was my idea, to create a holy space and to come man to woman, I'm here to heal anything in you that my brothers have left in there.

To banish the ghost of boyfriends and husbands past, get out of this. Yoni, you can't stay here anymore.

Willow: So powerful.

Charles: Because you don't want the people that have hurt you in the past to still be influencing you in the present or the future.

Willow: That's right.

Charles: You wanna banish that. And those memories get stuck, not just in the brain, but in the chakra and even in the tissue.

I really appreciate and love the way you communicate with the men and hold the men and teach them, Hey, we owe them one. Let's serve the goddess. Let's serve these women. You don't have to be attracted to them, it's not a sexual thing.

Willow: It's about healing. It's about helping them release and clear these old patterns, beliefs, experiences from their tissues, from their soma.

It's an amazing experience for anyone. I went for the first time with a resistant man, a resistant partner, and the feedback that I got after you took the men aside and had your time with them, I was like, Thank God, there's a man in the world, thank God Charles Muir is doing this work. You know, because you speak to the men and hold them so lovingly. Yeah.

Leah: You inspire them to find their, like inner medicine man, because the masculine has profound medicine for the feminine. A medicine that we so, we so deeply need.

And I love that's the place of intention that you inspire them to come from. And that's something every man can tap into, and it's a beautiful gift. It's a precious gift. It's changed my life and countless women that I've encountered at these seminars. And it's changed the lives of these beautiful men that show up who wanna get love right. You know, who are so devoted. And we lack a language for that devotion.

And I think some of the stamps you've made in the industry is you've brought a sense of language when it comes to sexual healing.

You touched briefly on the wound of the masculine, often feeling rejected that their sexual energy isn't okay, that their sexual desire is unwanted at times, and how that has an accumulative effect on, I'm assuming, how he feels as a man.

And you've also alluded to this wounding, the feminine being used, abused, and misused. I'm wondering if you could share a story that comes to mind of great transformation? You know, someone coming to work one way, with the burdens of the past, and then they go through this transformation and now they're a new way.

Let me tweak this question a little more specifically. There's a profound thing that you've discovered, and this is to my point; we experience trauma and you often talk about the opposite of a trauma. And there's something about sacred spot ritual that answers what is the opposite of a trauma.

A trauma, if we were to define it as this experience in the past of great pain and it can live on inside of us into the future, this pain. And if there were to be an opposite, it would be an experience of great love or power that also lives on inside of us into the future. I've heard you speak beautifully about this before and I would just like to hear what you have to say, in this moment, about how these two can be in a relationship?

Charles: Okay, our brain saves us from having to live through all of it. We go away and almost view it. We go unconscious. We push it down, we hide it. We don't want anyone to know we're ashamed.

If we got raped or somebody touched us inappropriately, at least in the past, that's the way it was. So our brain pushes it into the subconscious where it can stay in us. It's like, here's some trash, let's just throw it in the basement of our psyche. But we keep going through life throwing trash down in that psychic outhouse, in the basement, until eventually there's so much stuff there our free flowing energy gets stuck. Or just a single trauma can cause it. Our free flowing, blissful sexual energy can just get stuck and go into a pattern. The opposite of bliss, Numbness is one of them, pain is one of them. So my idea when I said, I'm gonna see if I can get people to do this, was to create the opposite of trauma.

To create safety rather than the total opposite of safety. To keep the person present, to not let them close their eyes and go away all the time. To add breathing. Tantra is a yoga, and the pranayamas of Tantra are very, very important to both clean out all of our Chakras where they're blocked.

Clean out the conduits that go from the chakra to our physical body called the nadi's.

Leah: Clean out the basement.

Charles: Clean out the basement, but also the generator and reservoir of energy that is the chakra. There are conduits. Whenever you see the Chakras portrayed it's a circle surrounded by things that look like breasts with nipples, at least when I see them.

And those are indicative that this is where the energy leaves the chakra, like blood would flow through veins, the nadi's carry energy. So by putting present time loving energy, joined to a meditative mind, not a mind that's in story... even if the woman remembers something from her past that she'd forgotten for 20 years, and she wants to tell you the whole story.

I always say, I wanna hear all of this, but when the session's done. Because you were just in a part of your brain that allowed you to access this, and we wanna stay there and have it take in present time energy. And now feel down here. And where are you feeling this in your body besides down here? Cause while sexual trauma can be primary to the second chakra, there are other Chakras that are hooked up.

Disempowerment can happen. The heart can close down. We can lose our voice because we were told, Shut up or I'll cut your throat. Or if you make any noise. Whatever threat... Or the threat. Don't tell anyone cause if you do, I'm going to tell everyone.

Leah: Yeah, being silenced. Yeah.

Charles: Yeah. So the throat chakra and then of course the mind and how it functions. I mean, we gotta be good at getting the energy up to the brain, but then the brain through synaptic connections speaks to other parts of the brain.

What's in your database having to do with sexual energy? Oh, molestation... the remembrance of my first period in the gym class... being molested as a child... being taken by unconscious men... or a husband that's unconscious, that just uses you to get off and then divorces you. These are major traumas for the brain to handle. How can this be in a world where there's supposed to be a God?

But we can't understand karma. Why has this happened? We can just come to accept it happened. What will I do to rid myself of my basement that's got a lot of garbage? I wanna make my basement into another bedroom and I'm the new me...

Leah (2): a temple. Yeah!

Charles: A Temple of Love or  

Leah: I love that.

Willow: I love how quickly the sexual healing, the tantrik practice that you offer and that you teach quickly eradicates a lot of the story that comes along with the, I was molested. My husband didn't treat me right. I had this man take me...

Leah: I'm unloveable. I'm unwothy, I'm broken.

Willow: All the stories, all the beliefs.

Charles: I'm a victim.

Willow: Yeah. It's just immediate eradication. You don't need a lot of words or headiness around it. Something about the somatic, what you're talking about are these synaptic reactions in the brain that start to shift, and change, and form new pathways. When a woman comes out of that experience, she's like; Oh, this is who I get to be if I choose to be.

Charles: This is who I am. If she just had an experience.

Willow: Right, Exactly.

Leah: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's something about, is it balancing the scales? No, I don't think that's quite it. It's almost like this ritual of love and presence and where you don't have to trade. It's not about okay, I do you and now you do me. This experience is really a meditation. It's really an opportunity for us to slow everything down and really be with what sensations are the sensations arising and can I stay present and feel it fully? Even if it's an uncomfortable or painful sensation, can I just be with it for 10 seconds? Can I breathe it? And give it a sound and see if I can free myself of a sensation that's unpleasant. And then what's underneath that?

Because I think the thing that's so uplifting and creates so much hope, Charles, is the discovery of what's underneath the pain? What's underneath the inflection point of something painful?

Someone broke your heart, but you stay with it and you finish feeling it. What's underneath that?

Well, more of you is underneath that. You know? There's more space for you to feel who you really are, to be connected to your essence. And I think that's where like the big pleasure starts to be discovered.

What can you say about big pleasure?

Charles: Well, it's so important to know that you can go to a great weekend seminar, if the teachers are good, and get a foundation of sacred spot and all the other techniques of learning how to generate love from your heart, and put it out more in your love making. You are making love.

Because you don't always start in love and be sexy. You start where you are. And if you're willing to have practice... embrace... Let's just hold each other and breathe together. Yeah? And now I'm gonna just touch where your energy Chakras are. They're all erogenous zones. To get the energy moving.

[00:26:31] Programs to Mastery

Charles: But you see there's a beginner's curriculum. What I would teach guys that are just in there to learn enough to have a session tonight and then decide if they wanna go on.

Well, about 70% of our students realize this is great stuff. What else you got? The mastery courses.

I build up enough trust in a weekend that people say, I want more. And I say, come out to my home turf, spend 11 days and 10 nights with me. I'll feed you the best gourmet food. We'll have two classes a day and there'll be lots of practice.

And some of the most incredible people you've ever met will be there.

And those mastery courses are parts of our teacher training. You go through an 11 day class. You might just wanna be the best lover you can be for your partner, but by the time you experience all that happens there, you discover, I wanna teach my friends this. That couple next door...

And you become a teacher, not because you hang up a sign and give classes, but because friends or clients come to you and you have a tool to give them.

And the thing is, if you practice this thing called Tantra Yoga, you become a lover. You become better at giving love, but also you've learned how to receive love. The receptive part. There's the yang doing - giving. And there's the yin learning to really take in love.

[00:28:18] Sweet moments in New York - first Beginners Weekend post covid

Charles: I did a class with 60 men in New York City. And when I asked them about feeling deeply, emotionally loved in sex, most of them didn't even know what I was talking about. When they come, that's when they feel loved.

But, the energy of love, the emotion of love, the beauty of your partner's face when they're getting it, He loves me so much.

So this is a practice, tantra yoga and I love to introduce it to people And I love to say, You're with me. You're gonna eat good. You're gonna do white Tantra, the solo practices, that increase radiant health and keep you young.

[00:29:05] Becoming a Greate Giver of Sacred Spot Massage

Charles: And you're gonna learn how to put out love in the beginner's weekend.

22 different ways or techniques of giving, but also learning how to receive those techniques.

Willow: I believe there are nine strokes for Sacred spot, is that correct, Charles? Nine different strokes and men think, Oh, I really know how to work a woman's g-spot.

Is it nine?

Charles: I teach them the nine strokes and then I say; alright, how many of you can remember the seven strokes?

Willow: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Charles: And some of them like, Oh God, you lost me with diagonal.

Leah: Well, I think you make a really good point, what you just said. Which is, it's really about sexual love. Which is such a unique experience of love, that most people haven't felt before, because it's not modeled.

And so you can learn all the techniques, and the techniques are important, they help us expand. But the thing that's the real message is love. Which comes through this deep level of presence.

Which is why the yoga that you bring to the table with the Tantra, the weaving that you do with it is so crucial to the foundation of each individual becoming a giver.That deep level of presence that comes through the breath, that comes through knowing your own body, and being able to emit that presence to another person.

It's one of the great gifts. Just as saying the right words, your words are medicine guys, while you're doing sacred spot.Willow: That's right.

And you're not telling her what you're feeling, keeping her in her left brain. You're giving, you're holding the space for her to have the experience and an awareness that I'm here for you. Whatever comes up for you... if you're screaming, if you're laughing, if you're crying, if you're squirting female Ejaculation six feet in the air over my shoulder, I'm right here for you.

Leah: Yeah.

[00:31:27] What a women receiving Sacred Spot Massage can expect.

Willow: I think I'm overdue for a sacred spot massage actually, now that we're having this conversation.

Leah: Yeah. I think it's important for people to know that it is different every time.

Willow: Absolutely. And you never know what's gonna come through.

Leah: Yeah. And that's actually really fun. That's what makes it so interesting and fascinating. And that there's a wide range of sensations and emotions that arise.

It's not always what people think when they hear Tantra and they immediately go to big orgasms. It's all about orgasming, orgasming, orgasming. And yes, there are bigger, better orgasms, but there are also more important places to go than coming. And...

 Willow: like, laughter, playfulness...

Leah: grief... feeling all the tears and the tenderness

Willow: Yes, or the rage...

Leah: I'm so touched that you're here with me right now.

Willow: ...the anger. Yeah..

All the different emotions that can come through.

One of my favorite stories that you gave us, Leah, was you'd done so many sacred spots and you have it on the calendar, a regular thing with your partner and you didn't wanna do it.

You were like, Oh, so boring. You know? So you got into it and you started singing the Jeopardy song or something?

Leah: Oh yeah, I just started to make the sound of boredom.

Willow: Yeah

Leah: We had to follow the teacher's advice. Which was make the sound of what you feel. And it was really risky because I didn't wanna make him feel bad, you know, that I was feeling bored. But I learned, and thanks for bringing this up Willow, because what I learned is to take responsibility for my feelings and my sensations.

He wasn't boring me. I have a place inside that holds the sensation of boredom. It forces me to go away, to deflect the love, go numb and tune out. So if I was gonna stay present, I also had to encounter that, and it lives in me, that I labeled bored. And so if I wanted to be a good student, I had to figure out, okay, I'm gonna be honest here.

What's the sound? Not the story. What's the sound?

And he is kinda looking at me a little strange. I'm like, just go with it, just go with it, do it with me.

And we just started doing the eh-eh-eh song. And the next thing you know that turn into a different beat. And we're now laughing and suddenly joy arises.

[00:33:45] The Purpose of Tantra Yoga

Charles: Well, I wanna say that there's a lot of Tantra in the world now. There wasn't when I started doing this. There was nobody teaching Tantra in America. There's all sorts of Tantra schools these days, and as Leah mentioned, a lot of them are into the pleasure aspect. That's the most captivating. It's nice to have more pleasure in your world. There's enough suffering. But that's not the purpose of Tantra Yoga.

The purpose of Tantra Yoga is the awakening of sleeping consciousness. That consciousness, it's like our brains spread out throughout our bodies with little mini brains that they call Chakras. Chakras are reservoirs and generators of energy that we all have in us, whether we feel them or not.

It's not a philosophy to believe in. It's something you can actually feel, energy, energy body. If you do practices to become aware of current. There's current flowing throughout our body. And so the different Tantra practices are not a sacred spot; touch, every chakra is in an erogenous zone, front and back. And they deserve touch.

And touch isn't just touch. Touch is caress, and stillness, and squeezing, and scratching, pressing. Whoa. And doing it at various speeds, and pressures, creating variety to capture the person's brain and bring them into their body. Are you embodied?

Cause the way to go beyond the body, into the world of energy and spirit, you gotta get into the body.

Kissing all of the Chakras, front and back, how you move against them.

Men, you got 800 nerve endings in each nipple. Move side to side on her chest or on her breast. Make little circles with your heart chakra and stimulate your own 800 nerve endings as well as hers through movement. Whether you're making love inside her or not. Change movement and learn more than jackhammer sex with one modality of movement. In and out, in and out, in and out, in and out, in and out.

And five minutes you ejaculate and you say you came, but it really was the preface for you going. Emotionally going, energetically going, the desire to be a lover, gone.

So we want to awaken the sleeping consciousness because when you're more conscious, you can feel more loved, more deeply. You can give your love more deeply and more freely. And you can actually allow the mind to quiet from its thought process and have a still mind that can come into the heart.

So that you are living your love in this practice of Tantra yoga, in your sexual sharing. You come into love, you come into your heart and you feel what dwells there. Joy. The word is ananda bliss, not just sexual pleasure, sexual bliss. That's "more better", as we say in Hawaii. And to be peaceful. To have a peace, a place in you, you can be in your own heart when it's crazy outside.

It's very important to know that during these crazy times, to the extent it's crazy outside, turn off the news and come inside and do the meditation practices that you learn at a good Tantra class.

You're not learning meditation. It has got time for yoga. It's something using some Tantra techniques and that's powerful and that's wonderful.

But do you wanna awaken consciousness and do you wanna practice love making in a way it's not just physically energetically blissful, but that you feel love afterwards. There's not me and you, there's... ahhhhh... I love you so much. Oh, the love is so big, the love is so wonderful. Oh, to be a lover is such a wonderful quest in your life.

Whatever else you need to be good at, it's more important than being good at computers.

Leah: indeed

Charles: Being good as a lover who can take in love and transmit love. In their words, and how they look at you, and how they touch you, and how they move. Love making becomes a beautiful dance.

[00:39:08] Tantric Kissing

Charles: Kissing becomes a beautiful dance where one of you leads and does the kissing while the other's receptive. You can have my soft lips, and inner lip, and my tongue. And I'll just be kissed while you kiss me and then we'll reverse roles.

I was receptive. Now I'll be active and do the kissing, and the other person is now the receiver and you're going back and forth playing with energy.

And when you kiss, you're hitting the two major energy vessels in acupuncture, the governing and the conception vessel, just from kissing. And most couples forget about kissing.

Willow: Yes, they do.

Charles: And you remember how juicy it was when you were a teenager? 

Willow: Yeah.

Charles: You could spend a lot of time just kissing.

Willow: Kissing, chemistry. It is important and can be created. You know, if you're in a partnership & the kissing chemistry is not there... I love what you're talking about Charles, let me be the receiver of the kissing and then let me be the giver.

And even swapping the roles just within kissing, it becomes Tantric, kissing. It becomes this other form of kissing. I also really love this distinction you're making about awakening consciousness. You know, pleasure is great. We all want more pleasure in our lives. Definitely. And awakening consciousness is a deeper form of pleasure.

I mean, for me, that's like really where the juice is, is that awakening consciousness. And it might not feel like the sexual pleasure or the more surface body pleasure, but it brings this level of spirituality in through this vehicle of sexuality, which is very blissful.

Intimate bliss is a word that crosses my mouth quite a bit because it's just very blissful that Ananda is alive. And when it's alive inside of one single person, then it's alive more in the world and we need more.

Charles: And it's spiritual. It takes sex out of the gutter with it's guilt and it's fear and it's shame, and you bring God into bed with you.

This is a prayer, I'm gonna love my beloved and I'm gonna see the God in them, as they see the God in me. And you treat with reverence, your partner, as if they were God or Goddess's representative on Earth. And what's the most uttered word in Sex?

Willow: Oh. My. God.

Charles: Oh God! Oh God! Oh God!

Leah: Ohhhhhh my Gooood!

Charles: Some people go, Oh Fuck, Oh Fuck, Oh Fuck. Oh...

Leah: right... right... oh fuck, oh fuck...

Willow: Yeah. God. God. Fuck. Fuck.

Charles: They can only get three of those out and then they're done.

Leah: Right, right, right. Yeah. It's pretty cool that, that's the phrase most uttered in sex is the old Oh God. Oh God. Oh God.

And in brain imaging, they can see that the place that lights up in the brain in deep meditation and in prayer, is also the same spot that lights up when in orgasm. So no wonder we say oh god, oh god, oh god.

Indeed. And the brain chemicals that are released are extraordinarily beneficial for you psychologically and physiologically. It's good to make love, science says.

Yeah, pleasure is good.

Willow: Oh yeah.

Leah: Science has proven it.

Willow: It's good for your brain. It's good for your heart. Good for your whole body.

Charles: If we could just get those scientists making love more.

Willow: Exactly.

Leah: There you Go. There you go.

[00:42:51] Free Gift from Charles

I know that you have a very generous gift for our audience; intimacy meditations for two. Can you say a little bit about that?

Charles: I have many gifts for the audience.

Leah: Yes, you do.

Willow: Obviously.

Charles: If they go to our website, either the www.ArtofConsciousLoving.com or www.SourceTantra.com, they each have free offers.

It's our way of, here, try it. You'll like it.  And the Art of Conscious Loving is our most recent offer. It is one of the six classes I did during Covid shutdown when I also thought I was gonna die in six months. The doctors had suggested, you won't wanna be alive, and I said, I wanna finish those classes I started. And I decided to give the first one, which is just a 15 minute Tantra class free, along with the world's best video on Tantra that Caroline, my former wife and I, created and put our life savings in, called The Secrets of Female Sexual Ecstasy, which was the first footage of a woman ejaculating.

I decided after 25 years, I've made my money back. I knew people needed to make love more during this time. So I said, let me give them that. 53,000 or so people spent $30 buying that D V D. And it's our gift to you digitally and one of my new Tantra classes. And if you've done yoga, you know that there are certain sequences of yoga asanas that increase the benefit of the previous one.

And so too, it is with Tantra practices, we don't just, Okay, let's stick it in. There's something before that. Sexologists would call it foreplay. What can I do to bring harmony between my body and my energy and my partners? So we feel attraction rather than repulsion. So we always start with embrace, bring the bodies together.

It can be laying face to face or spooning, or up against the wall, or sitting in a straight back chair with your partner sitting in your stride. Sit astride, cross-legged and just align the Chakras and then align the breathing. Because when two people breathe simultaneously in together, pause / hold out together, and repeat that for a period of time, slowing down their respiration, it brings the Chakras into a state of balance and connection.

And often when we get in the bedroom we're not connected. One of us is in our head. We've been at the computer, the other one's maybe been in the garden or in the kitchen. We're doing art and we come together and we're in different places. He's been watching Rambo on television and you've been trimming the roses. Energetically you're different in the Chakras. So we do the practice that causes connection and it's done three things to change your relationship. It's taken what was separate, we're in separate spaces and brings you back together. It has you breathe in the same way, cause often one or both partners is breathing very shallow, almost not breathing. And sometimes the other is just like holding their breath with turning purple. And so it changes the breathing. And then we agree, All right, we're gonna align what we're doing together. We're gonna do the same thing at the same time. Even though you're wanting to have sex at the end, that I'm wanting to just feel so much closer to you and safe and loved.

And then it brings the Chakras into play. I'm touching here. I'm touching on your back behind this hand, on the spine. Feel that chakra as we breathe together. We'll both focus on it. And in a period of about five to seven, eight minutes, when you're done, you've changed how you feel.

Before you dig the sequence, touch, breathe together, tapping, massage, We teach all these things in the classes. And so you're guided for 15 minutes. If you do the practice, you'll change how you feel. Come to the practice when you're tired, too tired to get it up or wanna have sex. When you're shut down emotionally, when you have a headache, when you think your partner's an asshole or something else. And I don't wanna have sex with you, maybe ever... come together and change how you feel. Cause if you wait till you feel like making love or just having sex, it'll be a long time between practices. Whereas if you can do a practice that creates love, there'll be more love in your life.

And with practice, you'll be a master at being the world's living authority to help your beloved feel loved and honored and adored in the bedroom.

Willow: I love that Charles. One of my favorite things that you say, I don't know how you say it, but it's like, it's Tantra:30. Or you say, Well, it's 4:30, It's time to connect, it's time to be in love.

You know, it's always time.

Leah: It's time for our practice. Yeah. It's showing up. Showing up for our practice. It's a great way to get started.

One of my favorite charisms is; it's a come as you are party. You just show up as you are. Right? You're cranky, you're not in the mood, you're shut down just like you described. And you change how you feel. That's... what a gift that Tantra brings to our lives. That there are little practices that we can do that take very little effort and we get to change our state. And we don't need drugs...

Charles: and they're fun!...

Leah: ...or alcohol...

Willow: ...they're fun, they're free.

Leah: They're free, they're healthy, you know... they get you loved up. Yeah.

Charles: And the video class is free. They can download it...

Willow: That's so generous...

Charles: ...and own it. And it's so cool, in 15, I think it's 17 minutes long, & you're done and you're just, Ahh, wasn't that a great time? What do you wanna do now? Well, I was really enjoying holding your ass. Would you like a little massage?

Leah: Yeah. Yeah. Right on. That's great. Thank you so much.

Charles: Change how you feel.

Willow: That's right.

[00:50:23] Charles and Leah teach together

Charles: And you know, we hold seminars regularly in the Sacramento area of California. Northern California, but also Los Angeles and Boulder, Colorado. We regularly go to New York and it's a fabulous experience to be with Charles and his very talented staff.

I have this great co-teacher, Leah Alchin Piper. Leah Piper Alchin... her...

Willow: leah Piper,

Leah: Yeah... Me!,

Charles: Who co-teaches with me and shares 20 years...

Willow: ...I have to tell you both when I first sat with both of you, I was like, Oh my god, Charles is such a channeler, and Leah's got all this information and all these factoids and stuff. I was like, I do both of those things. So sitting with both of you together was just so juicy for me and to see the way that you guys taught together and how you went back and forth.

I mean, just going to watch these two teach is in and of itself a worth the time, the investment. It's just, it's a joy. It's a pleasure to watch you both teach together.

Leah: Aw, thanks. Yeah, we have fun together.

Charles: I just taught my first seminar with Christy, my wife. Cause...

Willow: ...beautiful...

Charles: ...leah, Leah had got Covid

...two days before the seminar. I went to Christy and I said can you fill in?

Willow: I'm sure that was fun.

Leah: Well, she's brilliant. Yeah.

Willow: Yes.

Charles: She was brilliant. People just loved her.

Leah: Yeah. People loved her.I heard so many great things about Christy and the connection that the two of you have.

And she's a powerhouse.

Willow: She's an amazing woman.

Leah: Yeah, so come and meet us all. You know, meet Christy, meet Leah, meet Charles and watch how love heals. It's the medicine we all need.

Willow: Charles, thank you so much for being with us. It's been such a pleasure. Such an honor.

Charles: The time flew. And I'm starting to get the hang of this online stuff.

Leah: thank you Chaz. Love, love, love.

Charles: Aloha.

[00:52:35] The Dish

Voice Over: Now our favorite part. The dish.

Leah: So sex reimagined with Mr. Charles Muir, the originator of the Sacred Spot Massage. That was sweet. That was sweet for me.

Willow: Yeah, I'm sure it was. You have worked so closely with Charles, you've been in a relationship with Charles, you were engaged to Charles. You've really been in so many different dynamics with this iterations, with this pioneer of Tantra.

I always think of him as like the grandfather of Tantra.

Leah: Yeah, he totally is.

Willow: He really brought this Tantra yoga to the west and has taught so many of the Tantra teachers out there in the world, or at least his influence has touched so many of the Tantra teachers out there. It was really cool to hear you have a brand new question that you had never asked him.

Leah: I know, I can't believe I had never thought to ask him, What possessed you to do this separating of the roles of giver and receiver? I mean, it was kind of... um... yeah... far out.

Willow: It was great...

Leah: ...and so impactful. It's been such an impactful process for me in my own experience to be able to just go, Okay, let's just see what it's like...

Willow: ...I'm the receiver, I'm the giver. Yeah.

Leah: And I would've never guessed his answer... actually.

Willow: I never even would've thought, like, I just thought that was part of Tantra teaching. Like, I didn't know that he came up with that idea.

Leah: Right, right, right, right. And we didn't actually mention in the episode that Sacred Spot Massage is not this ancient tantric technique. It was a process that he watched over time and that there was a similar pattern. So with each woman that he tried this out with, there was a similar pattern that was happening over time with the practice, and it kept on repeating itself. And so then he decided to take it to a student and then he was watching it repeat itself over and over again.

The next thing you know, it's like this worldwide movement ,

Willow: Right? The sacred spot massage.

Leah: Yeah.

Willow: And so this point, if you don't know, if you've never heard of the sacred spot, it is a point like sort of midway on the G spot. If you think of the G spot as like a tongue, it's kind of like a midpoint.

And it does feel like an acupuncture point. You can actually feel these little divots in the skin, in the body, and you can feel it right there. And what's so incredibly powerful, which he did allude to in this interview, was just the amount of healing, and the tears, and the rage, and the anger, and the stories of I was molested as a child.

And I had this relationship that didn't serve me in all these ways. Just all the experiences, all the stories, all the beliefs, all of that can be eradicated in a single sacred spot massage sometimes.

Leah: Yeah. It's a tremendous form of healing and awakening that is so effective and so fast acting when we really show up. And we are supported by someone's loving energy, and caring, and desire to really be there for you. So much is possible. And it's so lovely to have a method to pursue, to explore these realms in these chambers of love, sexuality, and healing.

And I think for being a woman or for being a yoni owner, a vulva owner there has been a lot of impact. We live in a culture that sort of either sexualizes us or it treats us from a clinical point of view when it comes to our genitals. It's like clinical or sexual. And what we've missed the boat on is the therapeutic. And I feel like one of the great gifts that Charles has brought to our culture is the therapeutic potential of what we can bring to the genitals, both male and female assigned genitals to just go, Let's hold this in love.

Let's hold this in gentleness. Let's hold this in stillness. Let's hold this energetically. Let's bring spirit here. let our souls awaken here. And then suddenly, oh my God, all this amazing stuff comes forward. Like all this awakening can happen and the shedding of. the basements as he called it.

You know, just cleaning out those basements and cleaning out the clutter. Making space. Yeah.

Willow: Yeah, cleaning out the crap that continues to hold you back in your current situation, in your current relationship. You know, I also really love the way he just holds men. You know, he's really a master at teaching men and holding men in the integrity of holding space for women to heal.

I think it's one of his great gifts as I see it. And it's a huge gift not only to the women, but to the men because they get to receive through the act of giving. They get to receive this amazing Shakti energy that gets released from a woman's sacred spot, which isn't always sexual energy.

Sometimes it's just, you know, rage coming through. Sometimes it's grief coming through, but it allows men to really see the woman that they're with in the most authentic and true way.

Leah: You know, I had a conversation with one of the students from this past weekend who was a client of mine who came to the seminar. And I was asking about his highlights from the weekend, and he said, You know, the sacred spot experience was profound and life transforming. But I think my strongest takeaway, the thing that impacted me probably even more than that, was being in circle with men. Talking about sex and sexuality, talking about fears of erectile dysfunction and coming too soon, and the embarrassments and coming of age and masturbation.

Willow: Yeah.

Leah: All the confusing stuff that we have felt. But we're not just talking about sex. Like I grew up in locker rooms. I was an athlete. This was about men talking about the emotional aspect of sexuality, and I have never encountered that before.

Willow: Wow.

Leah: And I felt like I was in a brotherhood of guys who were being so real, and stripped down, and protective of each other. It felt so authentic.

I knew there was something missing in my life. This is the piece that feels so rare and special. He goes, I got really great friends that I can tell anything to, but we don't talk like this.

Willow: Right.

Leah: We don't talk about this stuff that has scared us or made us uncomfortable, you know, when it comes to sex and sexuality.

Not like that. and I was really taken.

Willow: Yeah. I mean that's just it right there. Like Charles provides that space. He invites that conversation.

Leah: Yeah,

He actually does it with a lot of humor.

Willow: Yes!

Leah: There's a lot of things people may not know, like, he tells some of his old stories of initiations of growing up in a street gang in the Bronx and...

Willow: That's right…

Leah: ...some scary ass shit. And then, he can poke a little bit of fun at it, and it lightens, it breaks up the tension... and yeah, he's a great facilitator that way.

Willow: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

there's concepts that he talked about, of course, that I'm so familiar with, and could share in my own way. But one of the things I really treasured about the interview was, again, him bringing his flavor to a concept, that only he can share it in the way that one can share it, you know?

Willow: Right.

Leah: It's meaningful for me right now, because we've had this break in teaching for the last couple to three years with Covid. And we both moved to Sacramento with our families and it's just been, it's been a minute. Since I've been in his presence, teaching together. So there were some sweet moments with that.

I did have one, sort of, cringe moment... That I'll just be really be authentic, and honest about is sometimes there's a traditional, aspect to Charles' and his teachings that can sound so hetero-focused.

Willow: Ah. Yeah.

Leah: And I worry that some of the audience is being left out.

Willow: Right.

Leah: And so I do notice that sometimes I get distracted with Okay, what's my responsibility here?

Willow: Right.

Leah: Like, wanting to just allow whatever is in the moment that's coming through to be shared and his direct experience to just be what it is.

And then also I'm kind of getting nervous; I want everyone to feel like they have a place here because it's really not so gender specific.

Willow: Right.

Leah: We really sort of focused on female sexuality and awakening. But I think so many of the same concepts are so true no matter how you identify your sexuality or your gender or who you love.

And so I wanna give voice to that.

Willow: Yeah.

Leah: And there's no judgment here. I just felt like I wanna own my capacity, my growing and expanding feelings about how our conversations are changing.

Willow: Yeah.

Leah: And I think sometimes I get a little scared of how old school Charles is.

Willow: Yeah. He's certainly, you know, he's 72 - 75 years old. Yeah. He's been doing this for over 45 years and, you know, we have now more room for different variations of gender and sexual orientation than we've ever had before. So, you know...

Leah: ...we're breaking down all sorts of new walls and barriers.

Willow: Yeah, and I think we do a good job overall, including everyone.

Leah: I hope so.

Willow: It's okay if Charles does a little bit, but I know what you mean.

Leah: And I know that he doesn't want to leave anybody out.

Willow: Absolutely.

Leah: But we're all learning a greater skill. Right?

Willow: Yeah.

Leah: So

Willow: His heart is so big and I think when he is speaking to masculine feminine, he's really speaking to yin and yang.

Leah: Yeah.

Willow: No matter how we orient, or what our gender is, we all have the yin and yang energies within us. And so, you know, there's this beautiful opportunity for all of us to kind of drop away from how we identify and listen a little bit more deeply and a little bit more closely to the message of love, which is the big message that he gives.

Leah: That's the meta message for sure.

Willow: Yeah. And that we have the capacity to change and heal our brain chemistry and our belief systems and our future. So it's really powerful.

Leah: Yeah and he's got so many great life experiences and stories. I look forward to sharing the story, the love story between him and Caroline on a future show. And the love story between him and I.

Willow: You and him, yeah.

Leah: The love story between him and Christy.

Willow: Yeah.

Leah: And that all of us, the great loves of his life, we all have tremendous respect and admiration for each other.

Willow: Yeah.

Leah: And that he's the cornerstone of that, you know. It's a living example and it's one that I feel super grateful to have been exposed to. And to feel like I've got intimate experience with.

Willow: Yeah.

Leah: And you know, I think this is a place of healing for people that we could start doing the ending of relationships a little differently.

Willow: Absolutely. A lot differently. A lot differently. Yeah.

Leah: So, yay, thank you Charles.

Willow: Great interview. That was fun. That's great. We'll have more of him. 

Voice Over: Thanks for tuning in. If the hosts seem to know what they were talking about, that's because they do. Leah Piper is a Tantric sex master coach and a positive psychology facilitator.

Dr. Willow Brown is both a Chinese and functional medicine doctor and a Tao sexology teacher. Don't forget your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.