5 Stages of Intimacy, from Conversation to Penetration with Dr. Nancy Moonstarr
[00:00] Introducing, Dr. Nancy Moonstarr
Dr. Willow: We are so excited and so thrilled to introduce you all to Dr. Nancy Moonstarr. She is such an incredible woman. She's a psychologist and a men's intimacy expert. So Leah and I are excited to pick her brain about her work with men. She is in service to shift awareness in the realm of emotional and physical intimacy for men from all walks of life. She felt called to inspire men on their journey to get to the heart of what truly matters in intimacy so that they understand and connect meaningfully to their partners.
SxR Announcer: Welcome to the Sex Reimagined Podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure-forward. Let's get into the show.
Dr. Willow: Welcome, Dr. Nancy. We're so thrilled you're here.
Dr. Nancy: Thank you. Thank you. Gosh. Well, where would you like me to begin? You wanna know how I got in this?
Leah: Yeah, let's hear sort of your genesis story.
[01:00] The Genesis story of Dr. Nancy Moonstarr
Dr. Nancy: It found me and it called to me, and I guess my heart really felt for men not being able to make mistakes and not being given a chance to recover and sort of being made fun of and being dismissed, and put in very hard positions. So I just felt called to stand for men and with men to help them.
Dr. Nancy: I also noticed that the big splashes in the media about sexual issues and boundaries really had to do with intimacy problems and issues. So, I thought rather than marinate in the problem, I wanted to help bring about something greater to men. And there are other threads here.
Dr. Nancy: So maybe about 20 years ago, I, as a psychologist, started getting a lot of questions from men about their sexuality.
Dr. Nancy: And to get relicensed every year, you have to, every two years, take continuing education training. And so I started gearing mine more towards men and towards their sexuality and just educating myself on it. At the same time, I was online dating and realized how much I had to learn about the male and the female grand union for a greater purpose.
Dr. Nancy: And there was so much that I learned and then so much that I yearned for from men. For example, I wanted so badly for a man just to invite me into a conversation about sex. And it wasn't done, and it was awkward. And often, I was the sort of the one that led, starting with sexual health questions.
Dr. Nancy: And I've come to figure out that, see guys are the lead with sex, just like women are the lead with emotions. So he's bringing sex to her. And I'll say her, but I'm using the paradigm of the yin for her, and whatever orientation or fluidity position you're taking. So he's really the one who's guiding and leading and she's following generally. Now, just it's an interplay of everything feminine and masculine and the yin and the yang.
Dr. Nancy: In my training too, I found a wonderful professor from probably GW (George Washington University) in DC talking about building a woman slowly through foreplay and, foreplay is something that's left out. And when people get training on sexuality, it's very biologically oriented. It's not about dating, it's not about real relationships.
Leah: Yeah. Or getting busy and being good at it.
Dr. Nancy: There are lots of techniques. So, the one thing I gained from him, I cannot think of his name. So he had maybe a couple of stages.
Dr. Nancy: What I did was I expanded into Five Stages to make it easier for men to understand because men usually do better with structure. And just tell me like it is, tell me what to do?
[04:10] Only Penetrate A Women If She's At A 9 Arousal Point
Dr. Nancy: So, backing up, one of the keys this professor taught was, "do not penetrate a woman until she is either a 9 or a 10 on that 1 to 10 scale." so she's gotta be very ready.
Dr. Nancy: And of course, so many women just allow or go along with penetration at whatever point, and men don't know that they don't know to signal him. And she doesn't know that he doesn't know. What I wanted to do was give people a structure to talk about it, to bring it in, and to work with all of these different phases.
Dr. Nancy: So I have Conversation, Rituals, Touch, just Neutral and Sensual, and then Sexual Touch, and Penetration. I have a couple of other threads that came in here.
Dr. Nancy: So from the time of being tiny, I had boundary invasions from boys in the neighborhood to a male babysitter. Overcame that, not till I was in my thirties. And had other invasions, and I had quite an explosive one where I changed my last name to Moonstarr as an adult. And became committed to following my intuition and where I was guided because I didn't that day.
Dr. Nancy: And I ended up helping so many people, and I continue to help people with trauma and overcoming different events and different invasions. I knew there was something bigger for me in this, so I thought, I wanna take this to the highest level possible. What is my purpose here? What am I to do with this? How am I using this? So I'm using my 360-degree experience to let men know that I've known all sides of it. Who's a victim? Who's the victimizer? No one and everyone. And when we point the finger, and we say it's just guys, we can't all rise together. There isn't one aspect of a gender that rises and the other doesn't, altogether. So, that's my movement that the times are right, R I G H T for this to happen. Because I'm finding men hungry for this information, and women. Women, I love working with women, and they're so collaborative.
[06:29] Somebody Has To Work With Men Like They Do Women
Dr. Nancy: They're easy, they're chatters, they're out there, but somebody's gotta work with men. And I thought I would miss them if I didn't work with them. And I wanna understand them, and I wanna give them that knowledge and also knowledge from a female perspective. And it is a pleasure and an honor that men trust me.
Dr. Nancy: And I get asked very respectful questions; it is very rare that it's not respectful. And all of us know in this field, when we run into that, we just block or dismiss or let go of that. But I get very sincere questions and am very open about their sexuality, how to perform, and how to please a woman or their partner the right way. So that all of that kind of came together, and that's what I'm about.
Leah: Beautiful.
Dr. Willow: So beautiful.
Leah: So, Dr. Nancy, I'm kind of curious, were there any obstacles for you or any healing that you had to go on personally in order to come to this work with men or not?
[07:42] Dr. Nancy's Compassionate Support Of Men Rises From Healing Her Own Sexual Trauma
Dr. Nancy: Yes, there certainly was. I didn't realize I carried hostility earlier in my adulthood from unresolved violations. And fortunately, I had a girlfriend who noticed it and said something to me and asked me, because she too had. So that probably was a huge jump and leap for me to be able to begin that healing. And I used so many different modalities, and there were other events that took place and one of them was at work 20-some years ago.
Dr. Nancy: And that assault trajected me out of a life that wasn't working, ended my marriage, and ended my relying on logic and or intellect. Or what's the word? Loyalty and commitment, doing things because, it's how, you power through it. And I started. I was committed. I knew immediately I have to commit to my intuition that was really what this was about.
Dr. Nancy: And that I had a greater purpose and I was being a seeker my whole life. I was just determined I was gonna find it. And I remember at one point in my practice, every client I had experienced rape, and I was privileged to be able to help them through resolving and neutralizing. Because the ideal with trauma is you don't forget anything, but you make it a more normalized memory and more neutralized, so it doesn't run you anymore.
Dr. Nancy: And because of that, of course, I was able to help so many people and understand.
Dr. Nancy: My life was very hard, I had a lot of hard things happen to me, but those things had given me a special lens and credentials to help others going through such great difficulty. And to understand the men and why they would do things that weren't right. Because if you don't know about your own intimacy, have an intimate relationship with yourself first, and then with another. If it's not talked about, it's not taught. We don't really have a way of bringing, without secrecy and shame, this equally important part of ourselves called sex.
Dr. Nancy: And I realized it was a tough territory. I've met with people who are surprised, including men, one guy not too long ago. "Oh, are you a surrogate?" And I'm like, "no, I don't sleep with anybody. I don't have sex with anybody."
[10:31] Teaching Verbal Communication and Emotional Depth is her Secret to Lasting Intimacy
Dr. Nancy: My specialty is verbal communication and emotional depth because those are really left out of that space between the physical Mars and the emotional Venus coming together. And we've got a whole background of nonverbal sex, and then we're adding some verbal to it. So I see that's what I'm bringing about. Because if you move through my stages slowly, and gradually, and with awareness, you'll have passion and love making the rest of your life.
[11:06] Conversation to Penetration | The Five Stages
Dr. Willow: Will you break down these five stages for us? I'm so curious.
[11:10] Stage One | Conversation
Dr. Nancy: Sure. So, the First Stage is Conversation. Why? Because, again, I'm gonna use the paradigm of she, because she needs you to see her for who she is and get her intellectually. If you don't get her for who she is, as a being, whole being- and women before they get into sex, they need to move into it, into their body. And a simple example would be when she gets out of the shower, and when he gets out of the shower- they're both in the buff -if she reaches for his member, what's he gonna do? He's gonna smile.
Dr. Willow: He's gonna get excited. Like great, this works for me.
Leah: Thank you, you got it, baby.
Dr. Willow: Oh, really? You want some of that.
Dr. Nancy: So, if in turn if he grabs her yoni, if he grabs her labia, her vaginal area, she first will sort of flinch and like, oh! She has to be brought into her sexuality. So, it's a different process.
Dr. Nancy: And testosterone is there for a reason. We're surviving because testosterone's very directly related to making sex happen. And estrogen is more spherical, more relational, more collaborative, and not as direct, which makes it interesting.
[12:37] Conversation | Tip 1
Dr. Nancy: So conversation, and it can be on anything, but instead of saying things like, How was your day? You say, what's the most important thing about your day you'd like me to know?
Leah: I love it.
Dr. Willow: Different. Yeah.
Leah: Yeah. That opens me right up. I mean, the difference is immediate. Immediate.
Dr. Willow: It's way more, way more engaging and enthralling like, oh, you wanna know the most important part of it?
Leah: It makes you think and then you wanna share. Great question. Great, reframe.
[13:08] Conversation | Tip 2
Dr. Nancy: So the whole point is sharing, and I also teach Uncommon Responding. So that's where a guy using the normal common responding will respond with something in his head. Something's already thinking, an association, or a story.
Dr. Nancy: Uncommon Responding is you listen to what she said and pick up a bullet, and ask her more about it. So, those are a couple of ideas.
[13:32] Conversation | Tip 3
Dr. Nancy: The other, if you wanna create a conversation, is to Ask Questions. Women love questions. What's your favorite this? What did you notice that you really liked about that? Women like alternatives. Do you like lighting really bright, or do you like it soft? Do you like the outdoors or in? Do you want water? Do you want tea? Do you want something alcoholic?
[13:54] Conversation | Tip 4
Dr. Nancy: The other fun things are The Five Love Language Test and those things like that actually tell you and move you right into intimacy.
So that you start the conversation around romance and connection and how you feel loved.
[14:10] Conversation | Tip 5
Dr. Nancy: If it's the first meetup and you're doing a conversation, I always encourage, you to come up with your number one question that encapsulates something about sex. But you can't say sex directly the first time and right away.
Dr. Nancy: So you keep it conservative and you just say what, what did your dad teach you about romance? Or, what actor do you think is really romantic, sexy and intellectual all in one? So, you're not just loading up the plate with sex talk right away, but you're bringing her in. And you're also gonna find out what she finds, or if she can talk about it, if she can allow you to invite her in.
Dr. Willow: I love how you're basically teaching men and guiding them to come to the outer edge of a woman and then infiltrate in closer into the core, which is for the majority of vulva owners, is going to be a better approach.
Leah: Yeah. Indirect contact versus direct contact. Is the way that we open, it's kind of like allowing the flower to just do its unfolding. Yum.
Dr. Nancy: So, conversation, then she feels heard, seen, and connected. That's the first connection.
[15:25] Stage Two | Rituals
Dr. Nancy: Then the next one is Rituals because Rituals are transitions. So, we can use a simple ritual like having a drink together, a meal together, a hug and a kiss when we come together,Eye Gazing, breathing.
Dr. Nancy: I teach different breathing techniques, even hands on each other's heart. And the Figure Eight Imaging that goes on with Tantric Breathing. You can do Yab Yum if you want, even with clothes on.
Dr. Nancy: But a ritual doesn't start out with sex. It starts out with doing something together, and it's structured, but it transitions into sex because a woman doesn't usually move- boom -into sex. So you wanna transition in there, and it's a fun thing too. It's a great thing.
[16:09] Ritual | Tip 1
Dr. Nancy: So one of the first things I teach, because so many women are exhausted when they come in and come together, is working with her on breathing. Hold her hands if you can, make eye contact, and have her imitate you breathing and you say, in and out, come on, and out. And if for fun, you need to time it because she's gonna take more than five minutes maybe. But she'll finally get there.
Dr. Nancy: Okay, so you're breathing in a syncopated fashion this way. Then there are other syncopations, which are where you're facing each other, and you're breathing this in and out. Another syncopation is where one breathes in, and the other breathes out, and so you're breathing, and you can even touch lips and syncopation. She breathes in, and you breathe into her, and then you breathe in, and she breathes out. And I know, you know, these techniques.
Dr. Willow: Such a powerful one.
Leah: Great. That alternating breathing where you feel like you're breathing in each other...
Dr. Willow: each other's breath...
Leah: Gorgeous.
[17:12] Ritual | Tip 2
Dr. Nancy: Another technique is if she's sitting across from you where she's tense or you dunno what's going on, imitate her breathing.
Dr. Willow: Love that.
Leah: And what does that do, Dr. Nancy? Is that modeling her tension?
Dr. Nancy: That syncs you with her. And your pheromones are already intermingling. So energetically, there's already a connection and she's feeling you. So if you are grounded in your body and calm, that's affecting what's going on. And her even noticing that is a great help. And then that gives you a chance to figure out where I start. Well, I just start maybe with breathing. And then go from there.
[17:53] Ritual | Tip 3
Dr. Nancy: And, by the way, when you do a ritual such as Eye Gazing. I always like to start with three minutes; that's a long time. No talking and just gazing at each other's eyes. It's not staring, you know, some people are afraid of that. It's gazing gently and you might giggle, you might feel a deep connection, you might have tears. It's so touching. And time it for one and a half to three minutes so that you really have to get in it and not move away from it, because we fill empty space.
Dr. Nancy: And sometimes there's talk about the ritual. That's fine. That can be your conversation starter. Moving into a ritual rather quickly. You don't have to have a long ritual, you can switch it up, which women like. Gotta switch it up.
[18:38] Stage Three | Non-Sexual Touch
Dr. Nancy: And the next is Touch. And I break down this third stage into neutral touch, and then sensual touch, still not touching the yoni, the labia, the breasts, the penis, or his nipples, which are just as sensitive as women's. You're not into that touch at all.
[18:58] Phase 1 | Neutral Touch
Dr. Nancy: You're just into a hug. You're putting your hands on his face. His hands are on yours. He's doing an air kiss and even an angel hug, but it's beginning to touch in a Neutral way where you're connecting. Why? Because you've got to get into the body. And, women have trouble. So you wanna get her in, and you wanna be in yours, and it feels good. This is a wonderful way to come in too.
[19:27] Phase 2 | Sensual Touch
Dr. Nancy: So the second phase of this third touch stage is Sensual touching. And that's where you might come up behind her when she's at the kitchen sink, which we all spend a lot of time at, right? And you're putting your arms around her, and you're moving close enough in that she's gonna feel your body, your whole body up against her. That's sensual. You can also do something like spooning because that's very sensual.
Leah: Oh, comforting, soothing, and yummy.
Dr. Nancy: So, we're bringing her in, and you're making sure she's comforted, but she's also excited because a woman needs both of those.
Leah: If it's too - like there's a place where it can get sleepy, or just kinda dozy where you're not quite in your body you're floating out into space. So there is that awareness, right, of wanting it to be sensual, just like you said.
Dr. Nancy: And women, men too, but women love all the scents, the smells, what they hear, what they see, all of that. So remember that for a woman too, and for yourself, it's a great thing to think about.
Dr. Nancy: So the sensual touch will build because you'll be touching in the non-X-rated areas. It might be her hips, outside her legs. You can even communicate with her and ask her where she would like her hands? And if she's afraid or she doesn't have an answer, because women don't have answers to these big sexual questions, say, how about you take my hand and you put it where you would like me to start?
Dr. Nancy: How about, you know the hand gliding, I think you called it handwriting. She can also write on the hand or he can write on her hand. Here and we're mapping, right? We're pleasure mapping, we're body mapping and starting to remember where- -but she changes, women do. Because the next time you have sex it's different, right?
Leah: That's right.
Dr. Willow: Different time of the month, different day, different hour, different woman.
Leah: Yes. My longtime teacher used to say, "women are like the sands of the Sahara. They move night to night." The sand dunes keep moving. What she liked last night, she might hate tonight. So be mutable... agile.
Dr. Willow: Be present to what you are feeling.
Leah: Okay. That's right. Be in the moment.
Dr. Nancy: All right. So you will feel her move and open to you as you get towards the X-rated areas, to the labia, to the whole yoni, to the vaginal, the clitoral area. And I'm big on figure eights and moving around and then moving out away from the X-rated and the center of the bullseye and then back in, and even crossing over it, and back out again and watching, listening to her, and communicating to her.
Dr. Nancy: And one thing that is important for a man is knowing if she orgasms. Often he can read her face, or hear, or tell, but he still wants to know if she's having one. And they love making us orgasm. That's, making something happen. That's what guys do; they like to make things happen.
Dr. Willow: Right
Leah: They like to produce results.
Dr. Willow: Let's fix it. Yes. Let's get there.
Dr. Nancy: I like setting up a little communication system where she can either tap you or squeeze. If you're doing doggy style, she's squeezing a finger once or twice, or she's sucking on or taking a finger, and it's wet. Or somehow she's letting you know.
Leah: Yeah. That there's a signal.
Dr. Nancy: Yeah. Because when we're in the heat.
Leah: A tactile signal you're saying? Yeah. Love it.
Dr. Nancy: Because you don't necessarily wanna go into speech when you're in the height of orgasm or just the afterglow.
[23:18] Stage Four | Sexual Contact
Dr. Nancy: So, the fourth stage is direct Sexual Touch where you are touching the labia area, the breasts, anything goes; the bum. And the same for you.
Dr. Nancy: So at that stage, you can bring her and you, you can bring anybody to an orgasm if you like. Or you can edge, which brings them up to the edge of orgasm and then back down. That's a highly aroused state. And so as that builds because you're building a woman like a fire. And a man's more like a firecracker; he can be there quickly. And she's very slow and gradual to get up and you want to build her to a 9 or 10 so that she wants you to penetrate, so she wants an orgasm.
Leah: Yeah, like she's hungry for it.
Dr. Nancy: Yes.
Leah: She's ready to beg for it; that's the best.
Dr. Nancy: That's right.
Dr. Willow: You want the yoni to draw the energy in.
Leah: Sucking you in, and when you deny her, it's even almost better. And then she finally succumbs. And it is just like, yes!
Dr. Nancy: But to keep her wanting.
Leah: Yes, Yes. We love anticipation. Sometimes anticipation and desire is like the best. I mean, it's the best part.
Dr. Nancy: So the sexual touch is for readying the next stage, the natural stage. After you're fully in the body, you're definitely into the sexual realm and experience.
Dr. Nancy: And there's a very primal need met with penetration. We know we don't need it. Okay. Our gay sisters have taught us that but they like penetration too. And we have lots of toys that we can use. So penetration is a primal way of experiencing, connecting, and surrendering. Penetration is what we consider the ultimate; that's the orgasm. That's the... what's the word for the final?
Dr. Willow: The Final Frontier?
Leah: ... a type of orgasm that you're referring to, like the vaginal orgasm versus the clitoral?
Dr. Nancy: Nope. Nope. it's, it's the epitome....
Dr. Willow: Climax.
Dr. Nancy: CLIMAX!!
[25:38] Stage Five | The Penetration + Intercourse + Climax
Leah: Yes, okay, that was going to be my next guess. The climatic rush!
Dr. Willow: So, is stage five penetration or climax?
Dr. Nancy: Yes.
Dr. Willow: It's penetration.
[25:48] I call it Conversation to Penetration.
Dr. Willow: Love it. Conversation to Penetration.
Leah: Love that iteration; that's great.
The bottom, bottom line with sex for a guy is that you're preparing your partner for orgasm. Because orgasm is signaling that I want penetration. Because, again, there's a primal idea of having a penetrative orgasm, although most women orgasm with clitoral orgasm. Not necessarily with a vagina, but there's still that climactic moment.
Leah: Hey, however they cum, we'll take them. You know? At the end of the day, does it really matter? I mean, I never had an orgasm I didn't like. So just bring 'em on.
Dr. Nancy: What a fun bunch of women.
Dr. Willow: Some are more colorful than others, but you know. Hey, but they're all good.
Leah: Right?
Dr. Willow: Oh, I love that. I love the walk that you take men through. It's an important and empowering tool because it's as you said, men really like to have a plan and to fix and map things. And I'm gonna get through this stage, & that stage, and I mean, I think we all do because we really grew up in this young environment. This is how we produce things. This is how we get results."
Dr. Willow: And so it's nice to have stages. It's how our brain learns. And then, once you have it embodied, you can begin to go beyond that and just intermingle it all together.
[27:17] Teenagers Could Use a How-to Formula Like This About Sex
Leah: I mean, I even think that this is a really interesting step and kind of formula that could be given to teenagers.
Dr. Willow: Yes.
Leah: Maybe shifting the penetration piece. I think we should be empowering our teenagers. We know they're gonna be sexual. We also don't want them to get pregnant and go through a crisis at a time when they don't have the maturity to handle it. But I think what we're missing out on is formulas like this.
Leah: Where we can teach younger people how to flirt, how to transition, how to play with pleasure, how to play with their sexual energy, how to stay aware of how their partner is experiencing the experience. How they're experiencing the experience. And to give them more variety of how to pleasure each other that doesn't get them maybe in trouble.
Leah: So I see some beautiful opportunities, just with this lovely map you've created. And I also love that it slows things down and allows for a presence, a deeper presence, to occur.
Leah: The other thing that comes to mind as you've taught us this really cool system is what obstacles do your clients or students face as they begin to play with these steps?
[28:38] Roadblocks for Women
Leah: I'm curious what the roadblocks are that they must navigate?
Dr. Nancy: Well, one of the roadblocks for women is giving them self-permission to surrender to pleasure. Because women are really not taught to have pleasure.
Dr. Nancy: Another is when he asks her what she wants in sex, that's too big a question. She won't know the answer. She doesn't have the language around sex. And it has to be a very simple question such as if I were to start at a sensual place to kiss you right now, right here, where would it be? You know, making it more specific so that she could actually answer it and not where do you like to be touched? because she's doing the dishes.
Dr. Willow: I liked how you gave options. I think that's really smart because women are often so full in their heads. You ask them anything; I was just saying that today because I'm packing up about to move, and I was like, I feel like a woman giving birth, and I've done a lot of birth work, so I know you don't ask a woman who's in labor a question and I feel like a lot of women are so full all the time.
Dr. Willow: So I loved how you framed that. Like, do you want me to start on your inner wrist or the back of your knee? Like giving those options.
Leah: Should I start on the top of your neck or your bottom lip? That's great.
Dr. Willow: That was great. very useful.
[29:54] Roadblocks for Men
Dr. Nancy: So, men are faced with women not being able to tell them what they want. They don't know what she wants. We haven't given anybody the language permission and the languaging of having these rich conversations like we're having. So they face the idea that they're the ones that have to lead the conversation. They have to be the lead in these steps like a dance.
Dr. Nancy: Because on the dance floor, if a man doesn't lead and she tries to lead. It doesn't work. It's awkward. He knows it's awkward. She knows it's awkward.
Dr. Nancy: There are exceptions, and there's also playtime where you switch it up, where you switch roles, but generally, he's got to take the lead.
Dr. Nancy: And the challenge he faces is he doesn't know how to do that. He doesn't understand it. And in today's world where everything's about egalitarianism and equality, she knows she can initiate sex. But you're the one that's really gotta say, shall I meet you in bed first at eight? Or would you like to get in under covers, and then I come in at 8:15? You know, again, alternatives and dropping these hints.
Dr. Nancy: So the idea of the challenge of how we are gonna talk about it and create this beautiful chemistry and continue it throughout our relationship? If he is able to at least step into the awkwardness and take emotional risks and try some of these things, he's gonna make changes, and some big things are gonna happen.
Dr. Nancy: He's gonna start getting more confident. How do you get confident? Repetition. You do it again and again.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, that's right. Practice.
Dr. Nancy: And she will start getting more erotic in her thinking because where is eroticism? It's right here. It's inside the head. And so she's gonna have freedom then to start thinking about even these stages.
Dr. Nancy: I do have a PDF on Self Pleasuring for Men and Women. I have one on Setting up the Boudoir. All of this is great because it gets your brain thinking about and anticipating because
[32:11] Great Question Reframes that Most Women will Love!
Dr. Nancy: I like to talk about, or I encourage, what's your intention for this love-making time? What is it that you'd love to have happen?
Dr. Nancy: And if you can express that, "look, we have 20 minutes before we both have to leave for work or 20 minutes before I know you wanna start getting dressed before you're gonna walk out. Could we lay in bed? We could still keep our clothes on, or jammie's on, whatever, but touch anywhere we feel like it. Would you be willing to do that with me?"
Dr. Nancy: Okay. Or, "how about we both get naked before we go out to dinner? We've got 30 minutes, and I won't mess up your hair. I'll take your glasses off, and I know your makeup's perfect. So I'll be really careful. Could we just be naked for the next 30 minutes?" I'm helping her understand I'm gonna give her plenty of time. Because women need more time to get ready, take more details along with them, and get out the door, whatever it is.
Dr. Nancy: Whereas he's always thinking about sex anyway, and he's willing to push the envelope right up five seconds before he has to throw clothes on and leave for work.
Dr. Willow: That's right.
Dr. Willow: But she's gotta keep her hair right and her makeup. The dinner's coming. I love that; it creates so much safety for a woman. I wonder how often women are like that sounds nice, but I don't want you to mess up my do.
Leah: Or really, like, we can have an irritated response because we're also unconscious that they're unconscious of the effort, the time that we need in order to feel we're ready to step out the door, or ready to get under the covers.
Leah: There's a lot of circling that we do in order to get to each stage. So I also love the piece about transitions. Because I think transitions are really important that we transition into each stage, that we have a chance for our depth of presence to catch up to what we're doing.
Leah: I think it's Sheri Winston who says we have premature penetration issues in our culture where we're all in a rush to get it up and get it in and get it off. And we're doing a disservice to the pleasure we're missing out on. We don't even realize how much is being left off the table. And I think your system can solve that.
Dr. Nancy: Yes. And it gives a place to work with even stages. Because I will have guys say well, I can make it up to stage 3B. Or they'll actually use it, and it helps them find the language. Because I also like the language of yoni, they can use yoni, and if they wanna use pussy, that's fine too.
Dr. Nancy: And I feel privileged that they will ask me very specifics, but it gives both of us a common ground. So it gives him and his partner a common ground on how we can work this. And one of the practices I give is, you know, take my stages and take whatever I've given you and work on it together.
[35:16] Watch Erotica that Your Comfortable with to Open up Conversation
Dr. Nancy: Watch my videos together; those can be rituals and things to talk about. And then I ask them to pick out even B-Rated movies that are sexier; they might have a really hot scene in them.
Dr. Nancy: I know The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, her last scene with Lenny Bruce. I mean, it was so subtle, but it was so hot. And it was really cool. And she had a corset on; she had all this sexy mid-century underwear on that was pretty cool.
Dr. Nancy: So, you don't have to pay for expensive porn, and another fun thing is to turn the sound off of a B-rated or the 50 shades, one of those.
Dr. Nancy: Turn the sound off and make it your own documentary and talk about it. Oh, she's doing... oh, she doesn't like.... oh man, no... ..Look, she's switching up now.... she's taking control now....
Dr. Willow: That's a great way to learn each other's sexual language, too, to really hear your partner be like, oh, I'm noticing this in this scene right now. And learning the words that they use.
Dr. Nancy: Yeah. Yeah.
Leah: I can imagine it's helpful when you don't have a language or when it's been embarrassing, the idea of talking about sexuality. I think when you're really new to making a choice to learn about intimacy, and you have a lot of conditioning from your culture, your neighborhood, your religion, your parents, your family of origin, there are all sorts of reasons why we would have discomfort or sensations arise when the conversation of sex happens.
Leah: And it does; it gets a constriction in your throat. It's really easy to clamp down. So to be able to have something visual like something on YouTube that's educational to go, "Okay, so this is what I felt, these were the sensations that happened in my body when this part came up."
Leah: Can start to normalize the communication of sexuality. I think the three of us have been in this work for so long. We're so comfortable and so remembering that there's a really beginning, awkward stage and just have so much self-compassion if you find yourself hesitating. If you are the partner who's leading the dance, you know?
Leah: Because there's a lot of lack of confidence and hesitation, and I imagine that some of the obstacles these men might face are transitions into the next stage.
Dr. Nancy: Yeah. Yeah.
Leah: You know, how do I know it's gonna be okay? And afraid to ask, and their own throat gets closed. Is that common?
[37:50] Women Especially Haven't been Encouraged to Speak their Sexual Truth.
Dr. Nancy: Yeah. and she also can tighten up and go into a thought or thread of history or historical thing. And I teach 'em, just pause and hold her hands. And the right hold is across the back, parallel to her shoulders, and in the center of her back. And if you're laying down, she tucks her arm up here, and she puts her other arm around you.
Dr. Nancy: But that's a very bonding hug, either at the back of the neck or across the top of the shoulders in the center of the back. And pull her in and give her words like, "we're okay; everything's good. keep going. I've got you. Things are good now you're safe. I'm here with you." Anything reassuring you can do.
Dr. Nancy: But the first step is just to pause. If she freezes and just holds, just be with her. That, itself, is healing. And then going on from there.
Dr. Nancy: I was gonna say, another big challenge is men don't really understand that women are not taught to say what they need or want. And now men aren't either, but with sex, their appendage is right out there. And they actually masturbate in the womb.
Leah: Yeah, our culture normalizes male sexuality, which is not for women. So we are taught to turn ourselves into pretzels to try to be whatever it is we think they want us to be. But we also do it silently, and it's not always our truth. So that can be very confusing.
Dr. Willow: And then we get resentful, and then we're like, why can't he do it right for me?
I'm teaching men to say, 'how would I know" when she says things like that, how would I know? Because then, it's her job to start informing or understanding she has to speak. And he also struggles with that. But like I said, he's a little more direct, and there's a way that he's gotta accept.
Dr. Nancy: If he wants really good hot sex, it does fall on his shoulders to go ahead and lead and to give her the information about sex and bring her into the sex realm, just like it's her job to bring him into the emotional realm. Because men need women for that emotional connectedness.
Dr. Nancy: And vice versa.
Leah: They're hungry for it. They're actually hungry for that emotional connection. Yes. They need some leadership around that.
Dr. Willow: And so, what would you say to men who do have a woman who has a level of consciousness where she is able to bring him into the emotional realm, but he's still afraid?
[40:19] How to Navigate Vulnerability
Dr. Willow: It feels very vulnerable to him. It feels like...
Leah: high risk?
Dr. Willow: Yeah, high risk.
Dr. Nancy: Well, because men, when high emotions come up, or strong emotions come up, they move out. They move away from it. That's natural because primitive cavemen had to think on their feet and protect their brood.
Dr. Nancy: That's what they were; provide, protect, procreate. They had to. So that's still in there. And women with high emotions move in with, oh wow, what did I do? But I wanna know. So, I help her understand that it is her job to bring him into empathy.
Dr. Nancy: Now guys come kicking and screaming because if they don't think it's important or they don't get it, you have to stay with it and explain why that's so important to you so that he can come into the empathy realm and feel and understand that for you. And it's not a one-and-done that's gonna be continuous.
Dr. Nancy: ...." that no, this is important for me." "Well, I don't know why it should be?" "It is." Well, it sometimes gets a little testy there, so he needs to think about patience. Right. Okay. Breathe. This is the top technique if you wanna know a sex technique; it's patience. It's being able to move slowly and get there.
[41:47] What About Anxiety Related to Maintaining Erections?
Leah: Yeah. Speaking of that, I imagine that some men may have difficulty in their sexual response by waiting so long, like that period of okay, we're gonna wait for penetration until she's at an eight or a nine. Is there anxiety that arises around maintaining an erection?
Leah: Is there anxiety that arises around being so excited before that happens that they end up ejaculating or climaxing before they get to that stage? What are those obstacles that you notice people face?
Dr. Nancy: Yes. Before I answer that, Willow, did I answer your question earlier about emotions?
Dr. Willow: Okay.
Dr. Nancy: So, now, men can lose their erections at any time. So it's important to figure out how to play with that and be collaborative with her. Like even helping her, "if you could hold me like this and you could rub me like this," or "if you could let me work on myself and bring myself back," or "how about we start over?" And I like changing positions if you're starting over again because everybody has times when their performance drops. That's just a fact.
Dr. Nancy: If he understands that he's taking them both on this infinity figure eight, move through the stages, he's gonna find himself turned on by her being turned on. We know that men love seeing a woman orgasm. They like watching it. They get so much from it and so much from seeing a woman they care about to get turned on.
Dr. Nancy: That's completely hot for them. So, the drops don't necessarily have to be because of patience. They can, but often it's patience with himself and learning how to breathe and come back into his body. Because men again are from here, very big on staying in their head too. and moving back down and giving themselves kind messages.
Dr. Nancy: This is okay. You'll be alright. And under, and understanding women's reaction to that. Because women can feel very responsible. Like, "Oh, I didn't do sex right. I wasn't sexy enough for you. I didn't move right to keep you hard." And for him to understand that she might be overly responsible. And she can even get very snarky and uptight because she's taking full responsibility for the "What I wasn't good enough" type thing—and so helping him put that in perspective.
[44:08] Dr. Nancy's Advice on Premature Ejaculation
Dr. Nancy: So, men do ejaculate too soon, and what's too soon? It's sooner than you want, right? And so that happens to many men.
Dr. Nancy: And I recommend that as you're practicing self-pleasure or partner pleasure, you practice coming up to the edge, so you're edging more. Because edging gives either party more sense of control. It's not exactly a control thing that you can do with an orgasm, but it gives you a greater ability to navigate and move with your sexual response.
Dr. Nancy: So if you're getting excited and you stop just short, you pull in the kegel muscles, which is what edging is. So you stop the flow of pee, whether you're a woman or a man, and you're pulling back. And if you do ejaculate too soon, there are a couple of simple techniques. One of them is to put your fingers or hers or yours around hers, around your member, around your penis, and press very hard from the top down.
Dr. Nancy: Usually, towards the end of the shaft, closer to the very end, the tip, it's more sensitive. And sometimes, right where the frenulum meets is a great place to press. Another pressure technique is putting a finger over the end of the penis, so you can't ejaculate as you squeeze down on the penis.
Dr. Nancy: And you're teaching your reflexes this new response as well. And then there's an adage in psychology, you gotta do something 21 times before it makes a habit. And if you need more than that, it's great to work with somebody or to read about it.
Dr. Nancy: I also talk about it in my PDF on Self Pleasuring. Begin practicing on yourself solo. So you start enjoying your body, getting in touch with what's going on inside your body. What are you feeling? What are you picking up? And notice when you breathe differently what happens to your penis and how it reacts.
Dr. Nancy: Notice about the thoughts. I like not using porn as much as possible in self-pleasure so that you're relying on yourself because you take yourself with you everywhere; you don't take porn with you everywhere. You might have a sort of memory of something in porn that's a turn-on, but you always have yourself. That's something you can conjure up. What is it that feels really good to you? And a lot of deservingness messages to the self.
[46:45] The Down Side of Porn + the Up Side of Imagination
Leah: There are a lot of studies that show the importance of keeping your imagination robust in self-pleasuring. And what porn does is it robs you of being able to cultivate your imagination, and therefore, porn can begin to numb out some of those erotic sensations.
Leah: You start to get into a habit and a loop, making it even more difficult. All sorts of things can arise. So I think that's good wisdom.
Dr. Nancy: Willow, were you gonna say something?
Dr. Willow: I was just gonna say, I love how you frame that. You can take yourself anywhere. And there's also this erotic nature we all have as human beings.
Dr. Willow: As we come from nature, we are part of nature. It's all within us. So when you start to discover your own erotic energy in your body and use your imagination. It's like you start to find these different places in your body that mimic the ocean, that mimic the trees, that mimic the valleys and the seas.
Dr. Willow: And you start to have not only a more intimate bond with your own sexual energy but also with the Earth at large. And we know the earth is the great Pachamama, so the Almighty Ma. So then when we have that relationship with that within our own bodies, especially as men, we have this new reverence for the feminine. It's really a beautiful practice.
Dr. Nancy: I wanted to comment on two other things that porn can offer tips and ideas, and it can also help if somebody is really... let's say one partner wants a practice of oral sex and the other doesn't, if you watch some of the techniques, especially if you watch between same-sex partners, it can help a heterosexual partner better understand it. and perhaps not make it so, a male masculine thing or a female issue.
There's something that happens with that. Now, the other thing, I tend not to recommend porn, but more the, just the movies that are out that are either X-rated or soft X-rated, etc., and pick up tips and ideas that you'd like to practice or try.
Dr. Nancy: "Oh, that looks like fun. I'm not into chains, but you know that blindfold & those restraints, those handcuffs look like fun."
Dr. Nancy: You know, get you talking and thinking about it and get your brain imagining, okay, well, what would I say tonight if I were gonna pick for the beginning of our lovemaking tonight? What would I tell my partner that I'd really like to do? That's fun. That's a fun thought. That's fun thinking. That's a great daydream.
I wanted to pick up on another thought I had, too, cause we talked about women and they can get what they want in sex and from men. Men also have a very similar, but it's a little twist on it: we have to accept what we get.
Leah: Is that settling? Is that what you're referring to? they don't really get what they really want. They have to settle.
Dr. Nancy: How would they get more? You know, because gee, they might be seen as aggressive or they might be seen as argumentative.
Dr. Nancy: So it's very important for you as a man to say and stand in what you want and your desire. And you can say it straight; you can say it evenly. That's not aggressive. That's assertive.
Dr. Willow: I think there's a way for men to express their desires without scaring a woman, without all these sorts of emotions, I need to get this from you at a certain timeframe.
Dr. Willow: That can be the pressure on the relationship that doesn't feel right. So I think there's a way of bringing it in from a more curious place of I was imagining this, or I saw this somewhere, and it really lit me up. Like it got me reeling, it got me going, and I think it would be so fun to try that with you and no pressure, just only if you want to, and I just wanted to let you know where my desire lies.
I really wanna encourage the listeners to stand in a place of holding a safe space for your partners to be able to express their desires. You are the safe person they can talk about their desires with. And that doesn't make it your responsibility to fulfill that desire, but when you make space for their desires to be okay, and you don't shame them, or make them feel weird, or gross or bad, then there's an intimacy and trust that opens.
Leah: My partner could say, "God, I bet your mouth would be so awesome right now. Boy, I would like to feel that". And I can say, "oh my God, it would; my mouth is so hot and so wet and so warm. It does feel good. I'm not in the mood right now, but tell me more about that desire." You know, "close your eyes, imagine it right now"..., and it builds with it.
Leah: I don't have to be offended; I don't have to be mad. I don't have to do any of that stuff. I can go, "yes. Tell me more, honey." What else would that, and what else would feel good?
Dr. Nancy: And you used a very good verbal technique, by the way, for the guy to leave out words.
Dr. Nancy: When he is being engaged sexually with a woman, he is flirting. "I can remember when your hands were in that place last night. Wow, that's hot." So he doesn't fill in. He lets her fill in. That's attractive to her. That's the way you wanna text; that's the way you must speak.
Dr. Nancy: And then let her, and keep leaving blanks. But building on it like what you were doing.
Leah: I like that. Well, we're just starting to wind down on time. I have one more question for you, though: how do you support partners exploring Dirty Talk if they're kind of shy about it?
[53:09] What's Your Advice on Dirty Talk?
Dr. Nancy: Do you have any tips for our audience regarding Dirty talk? Or pillow talk?
Dr. Nancy: I recommend setting up intimacy chats weekly in a neutral space. Another practice is to do 'em every day at dinner, just a few minutes of exchange. But the idea is to do it in a neutral environment, not in the bedroom, not in high emotional spaces, not when somebody's just walked in the front door. But when you're seated and really a very neutral, start out by using a lot of words to get into the topic if you know your partner is tentative or very shy.
Dr. Nancy: So you want to transition, which means add more words, "Honey, I really want us to start chatting a little bit about our romance. I'm curious about what's romantic to you, and maybe what turns you on and doesn't. And I wanna share with you what words mean to me, what some important words are."
Dr. Nancy: "And I like to know your words for- you know how we fool around, and we talk about my member is this, & this, and I tease you about Louise, and we have our own inside little fun stuff. Well, I think it would be really great if I could say more. And I saw something on a show."
Dr. Nancy: In fact, he might even have a little clip of a movie and show it. And it could even be something funny. It could be from Seinfeld on Netflix, you know? There was a really funny clip from Curb Your Enthusiasm on HBOMAX, where somebody had a Tourettes, and I had tears running outta my eyes.
Dr. Nancy: It was so funny. But It's humor; women really love humor. So if you can really play with it. And, Also, if you can explain to her, it's all sex. I might tell you that you're hot, and I want to ---- you.
Leah: ...do this and that.
Dr. Nancy: But it's all sex. I wanna know when I use certain words or what words we can use with each other. So I'm moving through a lot here. So that's the gist. and the first time you talk about it, no more than 10 minutes; just keep it brief.
Dr. Nancy: But set up a regular way to chat weekly. That's ideal. It's very hard for couples to implement it or even do it nightly. And if you do it nightly, I like this little ritual about,
Dr. Nancy: "this was really, really sexy for me when you did this."
Dr. Nancy: "And what I would like less of...." or
Dr. Nancy: "what is hard for me to tell you I want different is this...."
Leah: So you're saying one thing I love and one thing that you'd like differently. I like the framing of that.
Dr. Nancy: Always word things in terms of positives. "What I want more of this..."
Dr. Nancy: "I want softer; I want slower. I want gentler."
Dr. Nancy: "I want more words from you."
Dr. Nancy: "I wanna hear how you like...."
Dr. Nancy: "I want you to tap on my shoulder when you're having a..."
Dr. Nancy: So it's a positive rather than
Dr. Nancy: "I don't know how to please you..."
Dr. Nancy: or you never tell me which way to move..."
Dr. Nancy: or "where I'm supposed to start? I'd like to know where to start."
Dr. Nancy: "You confuse me" becomes, "I'm confused, but I wanna please you, help me out here."
Dr. Nancy: So it's a lot of "I" statements.
Leah: That's great. Thank you so much. Lots of helpful tips and suggestions. Beautiful.
Dr. Willow: Thank you, Dr. Nancy. Oh, such a pleasure to sit with you and to just learn from you, and really this framework is just so fabulous, and it's really super helpful.
Dr. Willow: And not just for men, but this is applicable for women. We're all for everyone. Love it. Yeah.
Dr. Nancy: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. What a blast talking with both of you women. Just so open, and this conversation was so rich for me. So, at a certain point, I was thinking, wow, I'm with my peeps.
[57:21] Dr. Nancy Moonstarr's gift
Dr. Willow: Yes, yes. Let's talk sex. I love it. Everything about it and everything in between. Tell us about your gift. I think it is the highlight of this framework you gave us today, right?
Dr. Nancy: I'm gonna give you a PDF on my Five Stages, and I label it my cheat sheet because you can look at it and lay it next to the bed. Pick it up, "wait, where am I?"
Dr. Willow: What stage am I at?
Dr. Nancy: But don't worry that it's overwhelming because I've got a lot in it, even though I call it a cheat sheet. But start just picking up an idea that you can put into use tonight. Try something right away as soon as you can, even on your own body.
Dr. Nancy: Just see what comes to you that resonates with you or "oh, I never really thought about that being sensual before. That would make sense, moving into that." And then moving.
Leah: I love that everyone picks that up. What's important is that you choose something actionable because that's what's gonna help you have embodied knowledge of something.
Leah: If you keep it intellectual and don't apply it, you'll never get the chance to feel how powerful the transformation and how beautiful the pleasure gets to expand into. So great distinction and advice. Actionable.
Dr. Nancy: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, thank you. It's been such a pleasure.
Leah: So much love. Okay. All right.
[58:51] The Dish
SxR Announcer: Now, our favorite part, the dish
Leah: Sex Reimagined with Dr. Nancy Moonstarr.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, she was such a pleasure, such an honor to sit with, and what a cool journey she's come up with for men. I love how she really supports men in this realm because they don't have a lot of role models growing up around sexuality.
Leah: She has created a process for them to go a little slower so that they can also land in their body and be aware of their experience and their partner's experience. I feel like her format of Conversation to Penetration really allows us to be a process. I'm actually pretty excited to experiment with the formula a little bit with one of my clients, who I feel is struggling and could use more of a method, you know?
Dr. Willow: Absolutely. I have a client like that as well. And I think men, well, we all grew up in this masculine paradigm of learning where it's like step one, step two, step three, step four. And so we learn in a linear way. Once we've learned something, we can morph it and jump around and do that. But to learn in this linear way, I think, is really useful. Especially if somebody maybe has been married for 25 years and then their wife passes, or they get a divorce, and then they find themselves in their sixties or seventies trying to figure out dating again. This is such a useful formula.
Leah: I was thinking about it; I've got this product called the 6+6; I think you and I have talked about playing with that a little bit. And so they get six couple sessions and then six solo sessions, and they can mix up who wants to have the solo sessions, if they wanna split it even, or two and four, or whatever. One takes all of 'em.
Leah: And I was noticing when working, and so I'm obviously this Dr. Nancy's method, so there's probably so much more to it.
Dr. Willow: We got the outer layer.
Leah: But I'm really looking forward to just playing with this step-by-step process with a couple so that she's also on board.
Leah: And understands that they're gonna be experimenting with sort of a seduction process. And to just see what it feels like to take this a little bit slower, to move into it, to realize that there is a process they both get to engage in, and then make it their own. And also, once you do learn, maybe this is a more linear thing because I think when we have a map, we feel a little safer.
Leah: We feel like something's got our back. We feel like we know what to do next. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. And so there's one part of our system that I think gets comfort from even though chances are your best experiences are likely gonna be a little bit out of order, as you sort of play with what works.
Leah: And everyone's body's gonna be a little bit different, and every couple's gonna be a little bit different. But I'm looking forward to taking it on a little bit of a road trip and seeing what happens.
Dr. Willow: Exactly. And did you check out her gift yet? The cheat sheet?
Leah: No. I'm excited to grab that, though. Grab it today.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, it's all kind of laid out, a little bit more information about each one of the stages, so it's a really generous gift that she's given everyone. And it explains a little more about the conversation and ritual pieces. I think that the word ritual could potentially trip some people up, but it's about making mundane, day-to-day things more of a ritual. And in the dating realm, now, making like going out and having a drink, making it more of a ceremonial, or a sacred sort of act, rather than just like, 'Hey, let's go grab a beer, you know?"
Leah: Another way that I would maybe define it is it's making something special. Yes. Making something ordinary, special.
Dr. Willow: I loved your example of toothpaste.
Dr. Nancy: Yeah.
Leah: You're right. Put the toothpaste on for your partner, and then it's right there for them when they go to brush their teeth. It's like putting down a tablecloth for dinner. And having cloth and napkins for dinner. You might not do it every night, but isn't it nice when you get to bring those things out? It's a little more trouble. You gotta wash everything, but better for the environment. And it's sweet; you have this feeling of going, oh, we're doing something special tonight.
Leah: Lighting candles and just doing those little extra touches makes your partner, the guests, and yourself feel like we're celebrating something. .
Dr. Willow: And really, when you ritualize intimacy in any form, whether it includes sex or nakedness or any of that, it doesn't matter. But intimacy is the connection with another person. When you bring some kind of sacred or ceremonial aspect to it, the simple act of lighting candles or incense or music brings the senses to life. It creates so much more. It allows both nervous systems to drop into a more receptive state, and then you can really receive the other person so much more.
Dr. Willow: And that leads to the next one, which is touch. She talked about different kinds of touch, just regular like affection, touch, and then there's sensual touch. So there are different levels and layers, and in Tantra, we teach all kinds of different layers.
Leah: I had never quite labeled it that way. Where you have this non-sexual affectionate touch, and then you have the sensual touch, and then you have this sexual touch. It's interesting to break it down like that. Yes. You start with that, you're coming in, and you're just sort of holding, you have an embrace, and you maybe spoon, and it's all about comfort, and soothing, and coming into the present moment. And then that sensual touch is like elongating, touching the sides of the waist, the length of the leg, the length of the neck.
Leah: And I think of it as the secondary erogenous zones. And for women, that's really important because it really helps when you start to touch us from the extremities, instead of going straight for tits and the clits. Like, don't go to tits and clits; it's not your first move, guys.
Dr. Willow: Especially not with your fingertips. Please.
Leah: Or twisting the nipples. Don't start with that. It's like you ease into that. And that's only after you feel the waist, the side of the boob, the length of the body.
Dr. Willow: That's right.
Leah: The neck and the face. It's like, don't go straight for those primary erogenous zones. We need a slower approach. And we will be hungry for those areas to be touched. If you don't touch them immediately.
Dr. Willow: That's right.
Leah: And build up that anticipation so that we crave it. And you'll know when we're ready because we'll start to arch, we'll move. We move our bodies in a way that makes those parts more available. Available.
Dr. Willow: Sherri Winston and her free gift. Be sure to catch that one because it is so good. She talks about women being yin. And so, in order to access the yin, you need to form the yang, from the external perimeter more closely to the yin, which is exactly what you're saying. Men tend to be in these young bodies. And so, you know, it's easier to just go straight to the center of them because they have that already, like energy coming out. So it's very much an energetic thing depending on your body.
Dr. Willow: And if you don't identify with either men or women, there's often a place inside of you that can switch and go back and forth. And even for a woman or man, sometimes women are like, "Hey, let's do it. Let's get it on now. I don't need all the lube."
Leah: If she's already prepped and primed. And she's. Because there's a way that... from... and, and this isn't so much... I'm also...
Leah: ...okay, Leah, don't, don't spin off before you finish one thought...
Dr. Willow: Right? Got it.
Leah: Okay. So there's ah, shit! Now I forgot. Okay, we're gonna skip the first thought. I'm going to second thoughts because my brain just went that fast. Ah, shit! Now I have forgotten both! Damn it!
Leah: Too much thinking about the thinking. Has that ever happened to you?
Dr. Willow: The yang and the yin...
Dr. Willow: All the time. And then I'm like, oh, I forgot what I was gonna say.
Leah: Yeah, so like the yin and the yang, I would love for you to comment about this if you're a man and let us know your age because I'm curious if this is a generational thing or not.
Leah: One of my mentors would say, you know, you can just go straight for the primary erogenous zones on a man's body. Just go ahead and go straight for the cock. They kind of want you to hurry up and get there anyway.
Leah: I'm like, huh. Because I don't know that's necessarily true all the time. I think guys don't necessarily want your hand right on their cock; whether they're hard or soft, maybe if they're hard, they're into it. But if they're not hard yet, sometimes they need a slower approach too. They also have performance anxiety. And so if they think their body's supposed to be ready, you land somewhere. And we all have different ideas in our minds about what we think someone is expecting.
Dr. Willow: That's right.
Leah: Or what we think they want. And so that can add pressure to be somehow more ready than you are. So my question for the audience is, What's your preference? Do you like to build anticipation? Would you prefer your partner to come from the extremities into the sexier zones and warm it up a little bit?
Leah: Or are you kind of like, "Hey, come on, you're taking too long. Just get to the goods."
Dr. Willow: Yeah. So if you identify with a male body, let us know your age and preferences. Do you like to get straight to it? I think it is an age thing because testosterone levels go down as you age.
Dr. Willow: And so men tend to step more into their femininity, their nurturing self. This mothering side of them becomes more prevalent as they get older. Whereas if they're, let's say, you know, 22, their testosterone is it's all about the cock. So I do think it's an age thing.
Leah: And their mind does have more thoughts about the whole, like the visualization of penetration and tits, and ass and all that stuff is walking by them all day long, you know? In their mind, it's right there. And I know that's true for a lot of older guys too. I've got many older clients who still have sex on the brain like they did when they were in their twenties.
Dr. Willow: Definitely.
Leah: So different strokes for different folks and our libidos...
Dr. Willow: What's your favorite stroke? Let us know that too.
Leah: I was thinking about the yin and the feminine being more integrated into a man as he goes into his silver years, you know? Yeah. Like those, really, those king years.
What I notice in men as they start to feel that nurturing part of them becomes more important, it's really about legacy. They want their wisdom to be appreciated and sought after. And it's meaningful for them to sit down and have longer conversations with their kids, grandkids, or best friends.
They've got more time. They've got more space. And so now they wanna be able to share all the things that they've collected over their life. And pass that on in a meaningful way. And one of the things that Alison Armstrong pointed out to me in one of her classes was how because a man's oxytocin levels go up as he gets older, it more matches the oxytocin levels in a younger woman.
Leah: So we see a lot of older men and younger women together. And we often, I think, can be a little...
Dr. Willow: ...judgy?
Leah: not very generous in our assumptions about that. But some biological things are going on. I mean, her eggs are more viable. His body will respond to that because he still has sperm to keep the process going.
Leah: And the oxytocin levels are a better match. And so, we don't have to take it always so personally. Sometimes there's biology at the foot and at play that's driving some of our actions.
Dr. Willow: Absolutely. Yeah. So the last two stages she talked about were the sexual touch and penetration. So she really drew this beautiful map of how to go from conversation to penetration.
Dr. Willow: Yeah, we've covered all of that. But then one of the things we talk about and teach in Tantra is when it comes to penetration, especially if you're with a new partner, it's always nice to ask permission. And it doesn't have to be verbal, sometimes it can just be with your eyes, but verbally it works too. Just like, "is it okay to enter?"
Leah: Yeah. Are you ready for me to enter? Would entering be ok? There are lots of ways to ask for consent without it breaking the mood or seeming awkward. I think that takes practice.
Dr. Willow: Yes.
Leah: And if we normalize it and make it a part of things, you don't have to be filled with doubt.
Leah: And I actually think it's really important if you haven't asked for consent with your long-term partner in a while.
Dr. Willow: I agree.
Leah: And it could be really moving to say, "Hey baby, are you ready?"
Dr. Willow: Yeah. And you know, one of the sexiest moments I can recall when a man asked for my consent was just with his eyes.
Dr. Willow: It was just, we're so in each other's eyes, and it was like, uh- yeah- you there? I was. Yes.
Leah: Yeah, because you can have this really powerful moment with someone, especially if you're right near the gate.
Dr. Willow: That's right.
Leah: Then you take this pause moment, and you check in with each other with that little nod of the head, you know?
Leah: Ah-huh . It really can say, "I'm ready, are you?" And it all can be said through the eyes.
Dr. Willow: Yeah.
Leah: But when endow, always ask, always use your words.
Dr. Willow: Yes.
Leah: Don't surprise somebody by just thrusting in, assuming that they're ready; that can get you in a lot of trouble.
Dr. Willow: Yeah. It doesn't feel good.
Leah: And I would even go as far as to say, Hey, how do, like, how do you like to consent to be asked? What works for you? I don't want to misread anything. I can say words; we can look at each other. We can do a little nod. We can do a little tap. There are lots of ways to say I'm ready.
Leah: Whether it is a tactile signal, an eye gaze signal, a nod, signal actual words. Because some partners, that's gonna be really important to them. Yeah. And it's really a considerate thing to go; hey, let's talk about this.
Dr. Willow: Yeah. It's just that it shows respect and honor, and most men like to respect and honor their partners.
Dr. Willow: And so, if they can bring that into the equation, then they're actually doing that more fully, so. . . So, yeah, Dr. Nancy, definitely check out her free cheat sheet; it's really helpful, really useful, especially if you are getting back into the dating world after not being in it for a while.
Dr. Willow: Really, her map is useful for all genders.
Leah: Yeah. So, check out. And I really like it if you've been in a sexless marriage for quite some time and you're both kinda saying, okay, we wanna do something about this.
Dr. Willow: Yes.
Leah: And it's fraught with different feelings and resistances and maybe old stories and obstacles.
Leah: This is a gentle way of reapproaching this in a way you've probably never approached before. So if your partner's been shut down to you for quite some time, this process allows them to find themselves too.
Leah: I think that this is a powerful thing. This is the thought I had earlier that I wanted to bring to the table.
Leah: I think about how to use this with women, especially women who haven't had the chance yet in their life to go, "what does turn me on? what do I need?"
Leah: Their answer to what you want honey is? "I don't know." You freaking figure it out. It's this unknown part that can feel embarrassing when you don't know and you're all grown up.
Leah: And everyone else seems to know what they like or want, and they feel tuned in, and you don't. It's hard to talk about it. Your throat really closes up when something is embarrassing about not knowing.
Dr. Willow: Yeah. It's a little shameful.
Leah: You should know. And so, how can we make that learning gentle and normalize it and make it sweet?
Leah: And it's never too late to discover. Because you're choosing, you're saying yes, even if you're uncomfortable. And I think this same model could be great for people who find themselves at an older age have missed out on their sexual awakening and discovery. Like it's never too late ever, ever, ever, ever.
Dr. Willow: Never.
Leah: I worked with a lot of middle-aged virgins. And they're getting to this point. "If I don't do something about this, I'm gonna be left out completely. I will have gone through this life without being sexual."
Dr. Willow: No sex. Yeah.
Leah: What am I missing? And I better get to it. And it can be daunting. So know that there's hope, and this is a great resource. And I know that Dr. Nancy would be a great option therapeutically for anyone at any stage.
Dr. Willow: Absolutely. Yeah.
Leah: Okay. Love, love, love.
SxR Announcer: Thanks for tuning in. If the hosts seem to know what they were talking about, that's because they do.
SxR Announcer: Leah Piper is a Tantric sex master coach and a positive psychology facilitator. Dr. Willow Brown is both a Chinese and functional medicine doctor and a Taoist sexology teacher. Don't forget your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.