Better Sex for Couples with Deborah Kat

[00:00:00] Introducing Sexpert Deborah Kat

Leah: We've got Debra Kat, a fellow podcaster.

Willow: Yes. Oh my God. You'll have to check out her podcast, host of the Better Sex Podcast. And this woman from the Bay Area, born and raised, is incredibly talented and multi-versed in Tantra, BDSM, sexuality, and everything under the sun. So she's a Jill of all trades and leads monthly classes exploring the edges of sexuality and spirit.

She combines her diverse background in Tantra, massage, and B D S M to support men and couples in clearing shame to have satisfying relationships and better sex. Hence the name of her podcast, Better Sex Podcast.

Leah: Yeah, and she's also one of the facilitators for Tantra Speed Date.

Willow: Nice. And she also is trained in somatica. She does Bondassage training as well. I mean, she is gonna have an amazing interview.

Leah: Yeah, she's well-educated in the sex and intimacy space. So yes, buckle because we've got Kat on the line.

SxR Announcer: Welcome to the Sex Reimagined podcast, where sex is shame-free and pleasure-forward. Let's get into the show.

Willow: All right, we start off giggling, so we're off to a good start here with our podcast and with our lovely, amazing guest. Deborah Kat, we're so thrilled that you're with us. Welcome, darling.

Leah: Yes, she is a sexpert extraordinaire. I have known Deb for quite a long time. In fact, here is a little story about Deb and me; she was at my first weekend Tantra seminar in Santa Cruz.

I was living in Oregon at the time and was so scared. I had no idea the type of people who showed up to Tantra events. And I had a plan B, a plan C, and a plan D if I was uncomfortable. And so I remember walking into this hotel in Santa Cruz, it was near the ocean, and Kat was one of... Debra Kat - I sometimes call her Deb, and sometimes I call her Kat. So you know who I'm referring to when I use those two names. ...And she was right there with another friend of ours, Susan, and it was, oh, I was so relieved to have somebody to anchor myself to, 'cause I was so nervous.

So she has been someone in my field as I've gone through all these different training pieces. And although we haven't always been at the same training at the same time, we've often done the same training.

So, we have a lot in common. All three of us have been through Lynda Caesara's Energetic Responsibility Courses and the Source Tantra Certification Courses to be a teacher. And Deb also has extended training in other places like in the BDSM World and Bondage. She is a facilitator for the New York Tantra Institute's Tantra Speed Date, and we have lots of friends in common in that realm.

Yeah, well then there's somatica.

Willow: So many things, yeah.

[00:03:08] Facilitating Tantra Speed Date Events

Deborah Kat: No, I have to say, so I am fresh off of Tantra speed date, which I did last night. I have to say, I forget what to bring. People together were such a passion of mine. But being able to support people in feeling what connection is about and feeling what connection is with the person in front of them is such an incredible gift.

And again, it's something that I didn't really realize how powerful it was until I started doing it. And so I'm just really fresh off of this experience where 40 people come into a room, and they are nervous, and they are excited, and they have no idea what's gonna happen. And then bringing them into their bodies, their hearts, and connection and just feeling into what happens.

There's so much possibility in a room of people who are connecting. I just keep coming back to this place of connection matters more than anything. It's made up of our different stories about who they are, what they are, or whatever. When we actually drop in and give ourselves the experience of being in someone's field, of being in someone's presence, like it can completely rock, well, it rocks my world every time I do it. And I know that I've had people who have found their soulmates. I've had people find their business partners, their best friends, their wing people. You know, there's a couple that I know of that came together to create a baby. So it's just this amazing experience.

Leah: How is it different from other speed dates? Like, what makes Tantra speed date - Tantra speed date versus all the regular speed dates? When we visualize a speed date, you can see yourself sitting at a table.

Deborah Kat: Yeah. Well, I think it comes down to the difference between who and what is on your list. And who's in front of you and what does it feel like to be in their presence? ? I don't know about you, but I have had the experience where someone has met everything on my list, they should match exactly, but I get into their presence, and it's like, they're not a match.

Willow: It sounds like, with Tantra Speed Date, you're leading more from your nervous system rather than checking boxes on a list.

[00:05:53] There's a Big Difference Between Being in Presence and Being in Story.

Deborah Kat: Absolutely. Absolutely. so you mentioned Lynda's work, and Lynda's work has rocked my world.

First of all, I have to say I was super resistant. Like it took me 15 years to do her work. Wow. But now that I do it, I realize it informs everything. Having my own experience of being grounded and connected to myself before I connect to another has completely changed how I do things.

I really appreciate you reminding me of who I was when I began my Tantra journey. Because I walked into Tantra with a lot of trauma around; who men were, what the masculine was, what it wanted from me, and the feminine in women. I had so many stories. So much talking about the stories that we walk in through versus being in presence.

And I just had this idea of who men were and what they wanted from women. And I had this experience over and over again of allowing myself to be in the presence of men in their hearts. Of men grounded, connected to their hearts, connected to their sexuality, and what it was like to be there with somebody who is consciously choosing presence.

And it's such a healing experience. And as I look back to the person that I was, I send that part of me love and blessings. But I'm so delighted that I can actually stand and accept and be in the presence of the masculine. And I think that's one piece that changes throughout the Tantra Speed Date.

People have the experience of being in the presence of the divine aspects of what's possible.

Willow: That's so beautiful. What would you say to women or men who are in the presence of a man who's not in his own sovereignty, not in his own body, not really in his own heart? Like is there a way to navigate helping them get there?

Deborah Kat: I truly believe that we regulate each other. And so the more grounded I can be, I'm going to help the person I'm with become more grounded. The more in my heart I am, the more I'm going to invite that person into their heart. Now, one can only do so much, bringing that in.

But then you can ask somebody, like, Hey, do you notice where your attention is? Are you here with me or are you, or are you elsewhere? And so, really inviting people into being present, into their bodies, and just helping them notice where their attention goes.

[00:09:07] Where your Attention Goes, your Energy Follows.

Willow: Yeah. Which is Lynda's work; where your attention is, is where your energy is. So there it is; it's coming forward.

And this is all so crucial when you're helping couples have better sex, which is what we're actually here to talk about today, is helping couples have better sex.

And Deborah, you have a summit coming up on that exact topic. So you're gonna have your own slew of experts and speakers on this topic. So all of our listeners are gonna definitely want to tune into that. So how does this relate to this, you know, helping people drop into their own presence inside of partnership? Maybe they've been together a long time, maybe it's been a monogamous relationship, they've been in a rut, they haven't been having sex for several months, or maybe years sometimes. So how do you guide them?

Deborah Kat: Absolutely. So I think first and foremost, being able to monitor what's going on in your own field, not just your body, but where are your thoughts going? And one of the biggest problems I see couples having is that their past resentments are stopping them from having sex.

[00:10:26] Saving Ego's Always BackFires.

Deborah Kat: So that's one of the things. The kinds of sex they've had in the past haven't felt good to their body, and for whatever reason, they haven't felt like they could ask for something different. One of the things I often see is one of the partners takes on responsibility for the whole sexual experience.

So for instance, oftentimes women won't tell their partners, oh, I want something different, because they're afraid of it, it or they think that they're protecting their ego. They think that they're taking care of him. They think that they're supporting him. And what happens when he finds out that the sex they've been having doesn't satisfy her? It's devastating. It's like there's a breach of trust there.

And the other side too is when men put all of their attention on women's pleasure, and they're not actually enjoying it.

[00:11:33] Couples Practice | Pet the Kitty

Deborah Kat: One of the exercises that I like to do with couples is have them imagine that you're petting the cat, right? So you've got your couple, and one person decides that they're going to be the hand, and the other person will be the cat. And so when we pet the cat, we pet the cat because it feels good on our own hands. But it also feels good -

Willow: I love that

Deborah Kat: - to the cat, right?

Leah: I love it.

Deborah Kat: And petting the pussy,

Willow: petting the pussy.

Deborah Kat: Exactly. I love it. I don't always put it way, sometimes I put it that way, and sometimes I don't. But yes, absolutely petting the pussy. And so what happens is you get into the habit of this touch feels good to me. And now I'm noticing, and I'm monitoring; is the pussy moving in? Is the pussy purring? Is the pussy moving away?

And so, that is one way to start that kind of play.

Willow: That's great.

[00:12:38] Couples Practice | The Timer Trick

Deborah Kat: It's funny; people often ask me what my favorite sex toy is. And I have to say it is a timer. And the reasoning is that we can do anything for five minutes, 10 minutes, or 15 minutes.

And it's what allows us actually to learn what feels good to us, right? So I suggest people take turns. They take roles. Who's gonna be what? They set the timer for 15 minutes, and then they experiment. And the person who is the leader, if you will, gets to lead for a while, and then when the timer goes off, they take a moment, they separate in whatever way that works for them.

Sometimes it's drinking water, taking a shower, whatever it is, and then they come back and have a conversation. What worked and what didn't work?

Willow: I love this.

Deborah Kat: And it really allows for experimentation. It allows for a surprise. I can't tell you how many times I've had people come back and be like, oh my God, I had no idea that what really works for me is a lot of pressure or a little pressure, or I thought of myself as being like this. When I actually experimented, I found out that wasn't actually what I like.

Willow: It's really a Tantric practice that you're teaching them. Cause there's the giver, and there's the receiver. So there's the Petter, and there's the pussycat, and then they get to switch roles, and there's a break in between. And then they get to talk about it and get that feedback from each other, which is really helpful.

[00:14:24] All the Ways our Pattern Sabotages us in Partnership?

Deborah Kat: Yeah, absolutely. I grew up with this idea. I read a lot, and much of my sexuality came from Harlequin romances. You think about it; the Harlequin Romance is the experienced guy who is usually the...

Leah: ...I said a pirate or a vampire or a pirate, or...

Deborah Kat: ...a man of ill repute, right? And then there's the young aunjanue who's not experienced at all. They have this love-hate relationship. They can't quite get it together. And then, finally, they do. It is often an act of non-consent. And what happens is our gentleman of ill repute knows exactly what to do to our heroine, and he gives her chills and feelings, epic feelings that she doesn't understand.

She has no idea what's happening to her, and it's all about him. And I feel like many of us grow up with that, especially those of us conditioned as women. We're not necessarily invited to explore our bodies and ask for what feels good or doesn't feel good.

And then that puts a lot of pressure on our gentlemen of ill repute because they're expected to know everything.

Leah: Yes. They're the ones who want it.

Willow: They really don't.

Leah: So they should know how to do it, and they should do it so good that we want to do it too.

Willow: Yeah, they should do it the way we like it, even though we don't know how we like it.

Leah: We don't know the way.

Willow: That's a lot of pressure on them. Really.

Deborah Kat: Exactly. When I get couples together, and I'm like, you are not responsible for her orgasm. You are not responsible for his orgasm. Orgasm may or may not even be the point here.

I watch their eyes just go pop. But it is so fundamental to really understand your own pleasure, and yet it's not something that we put a lot of time and energy into.

Leah: Right. We're not given the permissive invitation to go have the best sex life you can imagine. You have to find your own way. You have to discover your own map. And that means you have to be intimate with yourself. And that means you must be courageous to allow yourself to explore what turn-on means to you? How do you feel it in your body? Where do you feel it in your body? What needs to happen in order for you to have access to it?

And given permission to be a sexual being. I think we have all these ideas socially, even in how we treat mothers. As if mothers, once you become a mother, you become sexless again. We virginized the mother, and we go, ew, gross! At the thought of our mother having sex.

And I think that's another place where we have this really strange cultural habit of de-sexualizing the feminine. As if that is what adds to the sexual appeal of the feminine. And so I feel like these are really complex foundational things in our psyches, that we have to unwind to feel like we have full permission to claim that we get to be passionately sexual & alive.

I think especially for the feminine, I think we are much more permissive of the masculine. If we were going to look at the normative gender roles,

Deborah Kat: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you think about our language, right? A sexually explorative woman is considered to be a slut.

And that is not necessarily a good thing in our world; a sexually explorative guy is a stud.

And I think that our language has so much to tell us about where we are and how we hold things in this culture.

Leah: Yeah, so speaking about that, as you encounter couples or even just individuals in your work, right? People are walking in from different doors, and with different desires, I'm imagining. And so whether they're looking for a healing, or they're looking to fetishize something. In the BDSM world, we've got sensation and impact play, and then we also have the psychological stuff.

Where do you see these themes, right? These conditioned themes about who we are as sexual beings. Can you give us, I don't know, a case study of someone who comes in the door and they're grappling with this thing, that culture is sort of imprinted on them, and then what they end up discovering through one of the various mediums you've studied that you apply in your private practice?

I've had a few couples recently where the women are more experienced than the men are. And what happens is, at least with these couples, that the men don't have a relationship with their cock. So they don't have a relationship with their own pleasure, and they don't have a whole lot of orgasmic choices. And their partners compare them to their other partners, and so, there's this loop of expectation from her about how his cock is supposed to work.

Deborah Kat: He is not really familiar because he was a late bloomer. He just hasn't had a whole lot of experience. So, when it isn't your standard couple coming together, where there's escalation, and there's a climax, then there's this whole thing around this that is not a successful sexual experience.

And so, this is one of the beauties where Tantra really is helpful. Taking Ejaculation not off the table per se, but giving it less importance. Bringing in the connection piece. This is another thing that we don't really talk about much around. Sex is really easy, but it's not simple. And that is because we've put all these things on top of it, right? So there's the physical act of two people coming together and whatever happens there. But then, for many of us, it's a place of confidence. It's a place of approval; it's a place of connection; it's a place of emotional rest.

Deborah Kat: And so when you have all these expectations on top of it, and when you come to your partner and you're like, Hey baby, and they're not quite ready for whatever reason. We can take that very personally, which can become a bit devastating. And so that's one of the things I see with couples is for whatever reason, when they've approached each other, there hasn't been completion, if you will, or there hasn't been acceptance, if you will.

And so the experience hasn't gone anywhere. And because it doesn't look how they think it should, they stop asking, right?

Willow: Right. And they also stop asking because they don't want to get turned down. They didn't want to feel that shame; they didn't want to get triggered. They may lack confidence. They don't want to get triggered around all the layers you're talking about. It is a simple act, but it's gotten so covered up by the psychological taboo issues around sexuality. So it sounds like when you're working with couples, you're really layering all that clutter, unpacking each individual person because each person's carrying their own and then bringing that together.

There are some couples that I've been working with, and sexuality doesn't have a fighting chance in this relationship because you don't own yours, and you don't own yours.

Leah: Oh, interesting.

Willow: Getting each individual to have their own is the number one; that's the foundation.

Deborah Kat: Yeah. And really letting them explore what it means to be successful sexually for you? right? I mean, there are different ways that people are in their sexuality.

So, my Jaiya created the Erotic Blueprints with the idea that some people are energetic and some are sensual. They need different things out of sexuality. And so, knowing that about your partner and knowing that about yourself and setting yourselves up for success on your terms, right?

In the movies, we often see two people come together, there's escalation, there's the climax, and usually, it's both, which, statistically, doesn't happen that often.

Willow: One minute, flat, yeah.

Deborah Kat: And then there's napping and a sandwich. And that's a success, right? And it doesn't always look that way, you know?

My partner tends to be more on the energetic level, right? So for him, successful sex doesn't always include his penis. Sometimes it's literally taking my fingers and running up the back of his spine and just having that energetic sensation move all the way up, and then he's got that goofy grim for the rest of the day.

Leah: Right, then his nervous system's been reset, and there's a bliss state and a feeling of satisfaction and oneness. Yeah, god bless the energetics. They will help us refine our skillset.

[00:24:55] Reichian Theory Personality Types

Willow: Absolutely. I just love all the, all these different types, there's a word for it, but I can't remember the word, but we've got the blueprints. Then the three of us studied these protective pattern styles, which come from Reichian Theory, which can be helpful in working with relationships. Tell us a little bit about that and how you use that when you're working with couples. Yeah.

so I'm actually fairly new to this work, and so at this point in time, I use the work mostly personally.

I run Masochist Pattern, which is all about being immovable and enduring. And so that's my first pattern, which generally means that I'm a no-first. And then I need time and space to actually feel myself so that I can say yes to something. My second pattern is more of the connective pattern called Compensated Oral. So for me, my compensation is throwing the energy out and trying to scare people off. And when that doesn't happen, I try to pull them in. And when that doesn't happen, I end up on the push-pull-push-pull.

Deborah Kat: Exactly. And when that doesn't happen, I end up as a puddle on the floor. But how I use it with couples is, I'll say something like, wow, I noticed that when we're talking about this, you seem to have some rules about what needs to happen. So that is referring to a Rigid Pattern. And so what I would say to them is, do these rules work for you?

Or, for instance, if somebody runs an Aggressive Pattern, it's like they'll get very combative. And then I question, Hey, so I'm noticing you're really combative in this place, and I'm wondering if that's how you want to be here?

I'm noticing defensiveness; what's going on? What are you really feeling right now?

I love using the idea of noticing where our attention goes and what our intention is in the moment. So, for instance, I'll notice that if I get triggered, underneath that trigger, there is something that I want, right? And so usually, the trigger is I'm not getting it the way I want it. So, for instance, if I'm not getting his attention, what I notice is I'll start pushing at him.

I'll push that energy out and I'll try to get his attention. And so if I can step back a little bit, my intention, what I actually want at that moment, is connection. And so my partner and I have been together for 22 years, so at this point in time, he knows me well enough to see my pattern.

He'll see that I'm starting to grasp at him if you will. And at that point, he is like, assuming he's not in a pattern, assuming he's got some ground, assuming that he's got some of his own capacity at that moment, He'll pull me in for a hug, whisper something in my ear, any of those things that are soothing to my system.

Yeah. Because as I was saying earlier, co-regulation or connection is part of how we work as humans and understand our own patterns, and be able to watch our partner's patterns. And not take responsibility for getting them out of the pattern, but being able to reflect back to them, you might want to take a moment. so my partner and when we start getting heated, the first person who notices it is like, I'm going to step away to the bathroom.

And that's not the language we would use any other time. We'd just do our thing. But it's a signal; I need to step away. I'm not leaving you; I'm not abandoning you. I'm going to care for myself, so I can return better.

Leah: Yeah, that's great.

Willow: -yeah, that sacred pause.

00:29:32 Bids for Connection

When my husband wants my attention, he probably makes a bid for attention that I miss, not even aware that he wants to connect. It's only when he starts doing negative things that annoys me that I realize I've been missing some cues because negative attention better than no attention.

Leah: And that's sort of that pushout, right? So as soon as I notice, he's doing that volume thing with the television just to annoy me completely. I have a choice. I could either choose to be reactive, which I usually do. That's usually my first choice; I'll be a little reactive. And when he keeps doing it, I realize I haven't given him enough attention. He's missing me. And so I've probably missed a number of cues.

And so what would it be like if, instead of continuing to be irritated, I just went and grabbed him and kissed him all over the face and went, you need attention, don't you? And I'll just gobble up his neck or sit on his lap or wiggle my fanny in front of his face. I'll do something that goes; I'm with you, I feel you now, and excuse me for missing some of those earlier cues. I actually know that even though you're trying to aggravate me, it's not from this bad place. It's actually from a really beautiful place that is missing me. So now you have my undivided attention.

And I have to pull myself up to the present moment and go. Give him some undivided attention, not your scattered attention, which tends to be my M.O. I'm gonna actually look him in the eyes and be there with all of me, even if it's only for a few minutes. Because usually, that's all he needs is a few minutes.

But don't ignore these bids for connection. And it's a really good reset for me. And I'm really thankful that I've slowed down enough to notice habits and cues so I can respond differently. And that doesn't mean I get it perfect every time. But I'm starting to see the pattern, and I think it's a good example of what you were saying, Debra.

Start to pay attention to your partner's patterns and habits. Learn them, and be curious about them. What makes them tick? What turns them on, what frustrates them, and then responds accordingly. Start to think of strategies that will work so that more harmony is possible.

Deborah Kat: Yes. I love that.

Leah: I am curious about how couples find their way into more adventure in their sex life.

Maybe they've dabbled in Tantra, maybe they're starting to look at BDSM, maybe they're just bored, and they're stuck in a rut. Once you've got them maybe feeling safe and connected, how do you help expand where they can be creative? Like things that might be outside of the box?

Yeah. so couples come in because their sex isn't working. And so there are a couple of things we start with. We start with safety. Are you feeling safe? So I always thought this was more about women, but men have the same fear of not wanting to start something that they can't finish, right?

So they don't want to flirt with each other if they don't feel like they can have the whole sexual experience. We talk about some of these things, and we develop strategies around that, helping them understand their own and their partner's processes.

And then we start looking at, where do you have some fantasy or some turn-on?

[00:33:16] Get Kinky with Power Dynamics

We start kinda looking in the closet in the taboo spots. So power exchange is playing with power and power dynamics.

Leah: I personally think that we live in a world full of the power dynamic. If you look at something like the boss + worker, the teacher + student, I dunno why this came up, but the realtor and the buyer have all sorts of power dynamics across the board. And so basically making those explicit, right?

I'm sorry! I have just to interrupt you for one minute because I love that you just said the realtor and the buyer! That just opened up a new hot sexual movie for me, and I want to thank you for that. I'm taking that to somewhere yummy in my mind. I had to like highlight, ding, ding, ding. The realtor and the buyer all day long.

Deborah Kat: So there are all of these different places where we have power dynamics. And the thing is, it's so shameful, right? Like it's so shameful. And for women, there's a lot of shame around being submissive. For men, there's a lot of shame around taking power from women. There's a lot of shame around taking power from men. There's even more shame around being submissive.

[00:34:46] BDSM and Renaissance Fair

Deborah Kat: And so first of all, I want to normalize that and change it up a little bit. In my experience, domination is really beautiful leadership.

Willow: I love that. Yeah. I started exploring my own life way back in the day; most of my sexuality started at the Renaissance Fair.

Leah: Oh, really?

Willow: Oh really? Tell us more about that.

Deborah Kat: I worked at the Renaissance Fair during my teen years. And for those of you who haven't been, the Renaissance Fair is a recreation of Elizabethian England.

And so there's a lot of women with incredible corsets and lots of busts, and there's a lot of men in very beautiful costumes. And there is an inherent and very clear power dynamic. There is the upper class and the not upper class.

Leah: Ohhhhh.

Deborah Kat: So my early boyfriend and girlfriend, for that matter, came from the Renaissance Fair.

And so here we were in costume, playing with props, and playing with power Dynamic during the day. And this all sort of translated into our play at night.

Leah: Fun.

Deborah Kat: And it wasn't until I really started stopped dating people from the Renaissance Fair that I realized when I dated my first college boyfriend where I was like, what do you mean you don't want to be my Lord and master?

What do you mean you don't want to play with-

Willow: ...haven't you been to the Renaissance Fair? Right?

Leah: Yeah, I know! I'm a wench; come on, treat me like one.

Deborah Kat: Yeah! Or what do you mean you don't want to be my stable boy? This was so normal in my sex life that I was shocked when people didn't want to do it.

And then, when I came into Tantra, the masculine was holding this space, and the feminine was surrendering to this space. I was like, oh, that's very much like the dom and the sub. The dom is leading, and the sub is following and surrendering. And there's this beautiful interplay between a pushing of boundaries and a holding of space.

And people want different things. We all want something a little different from our sex lives. Some people like this place for stress release; for some people, this is a place for adoration, and for some people, this is a place for connection. And bringing all of these pieces to play enhances our sex and opens us up.

And I discovered so many things in the BDSM world about myself. So I tend to be a bit on the controlled side of things. let me back up just a second. So, B D S M is basically three different concepts, one of which is about using sensation, right? Sensation to the body.

And what people generally want when they're interested in Sensation Play is to have a different relationship with their body than they have on a normal basis. People who like Restraint tend to want Surrender, right? They tend to want to have nowhere to go but surrender.

And then people who want to play, who play on sort of more in the Mind Games part, what I believe they're really playing with, and they're really testing is how far am I willing to push? What is my edge? How far can I go?

And so notice, in play, these three very different ways of playing. So you've got the impact play, getting into the body. You've got the restraint play, finding your surrender. And then you've got more of the intellectual play: what are my edges?

Leah: I love it.

Deborah Kat: And so, for me, I was not good at the surrender at all. And I always thought, well, if I let somebody tie me up, they're gonna poke me and prod me, and it's gonna be terrible.

My partner and I had this conversation, and he said, I'm gonna be right there. I'm not gonna let anything happen to you. I'm gonna take good care of you. And I was like, oh, well, okay, then. And so I let him.

Willow: In that case, time me up, baby.

Deborah Kat: I tie him up. And it was really fascinating cause I had this very internal process, right?

So we made an agreement; I'm going to try this out for a while. And we had safe words or communication words to let him know that I really wanted things to stop and that it wasn't just part of the play. And so, I had this whole process where I literally went through this emotional rollercoaster of, I'm okay, I'm not okay, I'm angry, I'm fighting, I am exhausted.

I wanted the experience to go all the way through. And the whole time, he was like, I'm here for you. You're okay. You're okay. You can do what you need to do. And it was really a freeing experience.

I really got the understanding that we can be free in a box. We can be free. Our freedom is not based on the outside world. Our freedom is an inside job.

Leah: I love that it was so well illustrated.

Willow: Yeah. It's amazing. What did that do then, that internal shift inside of you? How did that move into all other sectors of your life, business, health, and family?

Deborah Kat: Oh, absolutely. I just really realized that my experience is all about where I put my intention and my attention. I keep coming back to that cause it was like, oh, things are not going exactly the way I would prefer them to go. Where am I gonna put my attention?

Am I gonna put it on solving the problem, or am I gonna put it on not just freaking out about the experience. And I'll give you an example. So I did Tantra Speed Date last night, and you need certain supplies. So 10 minutes before we were supposed to start, I realized I didn't have a very important supply.

And so I'm like, I can either just go ahead and find what I need or be creative. And so I just didn't have the time to freak out, right? I didn't have the time to put my energy there. I put my attention on solving the problem. And I also paid attention to know that whether I had it or not, I could figure it out.

And so there's something about having more control over my own experience that I feel like I got from playing in the kink world and in the BDSM world. And just realized that I can put my attention where I want it to go.

Now, learning how to hone one's attention is a whole nother story. And what I would say is something I really got from Lynda's work is where's my attention going? Where's my attention going?

Yeah. Just backing up for a second and tapping into what you described in terms of your Discomfort with surrender and the unknown.

Our minds can take us for a ride when we don't know what's gonna happen. Our minds can lean into the worst-case scenario; I'm gonna be poked and tickled. Someone's gonna do something to me that I don't want. and they won't listen when I tell them; I don't want that. I relate to that, and what I felt in your experience was how wonderful this type of opportunity can be for people who need to reclaim trust again.

When we go through years of partnership together, we have all sorts of little things that happen that have a cumulative effect and build up stores of resentment. And those stores of resentment are usually connected; I don't trust you anymore. I may love you a whole bunch, and my love may be deep, but that doesn't mean my trust is deep.

[00:43:54] Trust the Playground, and You'll Find Freedom

Deborah Kat: And the door to trust opens on our side. So when we cooperate and know where the boundaries are, we know how big our playground is. And I think you said something so powerful about freedom that you can find freedom even in a box. And we don't conceptualize that very well.

But what you described, I really had the felt sense of going, that's right. When you know the engagement rules, you take risks and practice attunement. You can feel what your partner is sensing and feeling. Then you can be there with such safety, support, and holding while also helping them find an edge, finding their discomfort, and realizing that they can do something hard. And when they do, they find liberation. They find freedom.

And so if we can be in our love and help each other walk towards those edges, we'll find what we most long for. Which is, we can surrender, we can trust, we can do hard things, we can try new things. You're my person, right? I know you're gonna be there for me when it matters.

And so I just love how these little exploratory adventures turn into ideas and concepts that we might have originally thought to be afraid of. But that they could actually lead to something quite beautiful. And a deep internal process, such as trust. and surrender, like these, are major concepts. It inspires me.

Willow: Major. And so, God, so inspiring and so crucial for good intimacy. Trust is one of the primary pillars of intimacy you need.

Leah: Right, and good sex!

Willow: You need presence in order to be vulnerable, to have the kind of sex that we're talking about here. That kind of mind that blows your mind because you've never had it before. You go beyond what you think you're capable of. And that's the expansion. That is the definition of Tantra, which is to expand who you conceptualize yourself to be.

Oh, I love that. And thank you for that reflection. I sometimes think when we're really close to a situation; we don't see the bigger picture.

I really appreciate that reflection and hearing you say that it's like, oh yeah, that!

Leah: So yummy. And I think what you are saying about where you're putting your attention, right? Because I think we're hardwired to see a problem, and then we go into the stress of the problem, how we feel about the problem, and the doom of the problem. And now we're reviving up, and we're revving up. But when you know how to redirect and go, let's put our attention toward the solution versus how the problem is making us feel.

Deborah Kat: Absolutely. And the trust of knowing that it's going to work out. It may not look like what I expect it to look like. Nine times out of 10, it's gonna look way better, and it's going to be better.

And again, a huge thing I've learned in leadership is surrender. Being able to follow the connection, where is the connection leading? Because I always have this idea of what I think it's gonna look like.

And there's a certain point where something shows up; it's usually another human. And that other human has a whole other idea of what's gonna happen and what they want it to look like. And I've got a choice. I can fight against that for my side, if you will. Or I can look for that collaboration.

And within that collaboration, if I'm in the DOM or the leadership position, I can nudge it or hold it and direct it in a certain way.

00:48:02 Leah's First Time Watching a BDSM Impact Scene

I wanted to share an experience kind of and see how this compares to your experiences.

Leah: So I watched my first scene recently of an impact scene between two people. And you have the submissive and the dom, and they fill out this sheet with this is what I'm up for, this is what I'm not up for, this is the intensity that I'm up for, & so on. And I was invited to witness it because the things that this person is capable of in terms of intensity when it comes to impact make me nervous. I noticed discomfort around the exposure of that to my nervous system. And the breakthrough & the aha that I received was watching the bliss on the person's face. The sub's face was so light, it was like they were floating in the clouds, and it was the most blissed-out look on their face that I couldn't be afraid of.

Not only that, but I got to see the reality that it's just 20% intensity and 80% soothing, comforting, integrating, and consolidating. And because we have ideas in our head about what we think something is, but until you get to have the reality of going, well, actually, the picture in my head is not the reality.

I had a nervous system upgrade by being in a really sweet, trusting environment with really caring, loving people. Taking one person, taking that person to an edge, and then this combination of intense sensation with total comfort & relaxation in between. My mind had no idea what it was gonna look like. I had made up all sorts of other stories.

So, does my experience relate to the experiences you've either co-created or have experienced yourself, especially in the BDSM world?

Deborah Kat: Absolutely. I think kink is one of- kink or BDSM- I use those terms.

00:50:12 The Healing Possible within Kink is Incredibly Underestimated

Deborah Kat: interchangeably. But I believe that the healing that is possible in that realm is just incredibly underestimated.

Leah: Totally.

Deborah Kat: So for you, you got healing; you got the experience as a witness. And I think witnessing and being witnessed are huge, huge things, especially since so much of sex is behind closed doors, you know, that we don't actually learn in ways that we could. Like getting to see people enjoying things we hadn't thought of or thought of as enjoyable.

Now, for instance, with impact, as I said before, I believe that impact is getting into the body. So what I've noticed is people who really like impact, especially heavy impact, are folks who have a hard time getting into their body for whatever reason. And so, for instance, my degree is in legal studies, and I was on my way to law school, and I took another turn.

But I was in this very heady, very intellectual experience where it's like I was working very hard. I'm thinking, really up in my head and not in my body. And so, during that time of my life and my relationship, the kinds of play that I wanted, the kinds of play that felt good to my system, there's a lot of intensity.

It was a lot about being in my body.

Willow: If I can pause you for a moment and just maybe unpack this word impact and just maybe explain that a little bit more to our audience. Like what you mean by impact, it's not so much about hitting somebody, right?

Deborah Kat: Thank you for asking, so the impact is where two things come together. So it could be a hand and a tush, it could be you know, a flogger or something that is-

Leah: -or a pinch, or a bite.

Deborah Kat: Exactly. Exactly. Impact tends to have this idea of going one way, so the hand to the tush, but the reality is that the hand is getting information. There's an impact on both sides; does that make sense?

Willow: Yeah. Great explanation.

Deborah Kat: And, if you think about it, it's we have an impact on each other, whether it's with our words, whether it's with our physicality, whether it's-

Leah: -the way our gaze.

Deborah Kat: -Our gaze, exactly. We're always impacting each other and, almost more importantly, are being impacted, right? So, a good leader, a good dom, a solid masculine, in my opinion, is someone who not only impacts others but is aware of how they're impacting and is impacted in exchange.

. . If you think about it, a good leader, a good dom is going to notice; oh, I do this for my sub, to the person I'm playing with. Are they gonna come back and play with me again?

One of the things that I talk about when I work with people around their dominance, in particular, is, what is your objective here? If your objective is not on some level to create a situation where your person is just so ready to come back for more, you might want to rethink this, right?

Leah: Right. It's like you want to leave them wanting more. And what this dom was explaining to me was this whole idea of pouring back into the dom. That there's a place, often at the end of a scene, where the sub often wants to pour something back into the dom, having received so much from the dom.

And then that's a whole nother invitation to explore, well, what does that look like? And here I am, just a witness and feeling so impacted by the experience and no direct impact in the way of something hitting my system was as visible as what was happening between these two other people. But yet, their experience deeply impacted me. And it wasn't even about being a voyeur. It was about allowing something I was unfamiliar with to affect me in a positive way. And I think there's so much we don't understand about this world and that there really is, like you mentioned, Kat, an opportunity for some really deep healing. And for us to come away from our judgments and discover more curiosity. I have a friend who had a lot of sexual trauma in their experience, and what that sexual trauma looked like was not having any control and not being able to say yes or no to what was happening to them.

And so they used conscious BDSM, conscious kink, to have the experience of being able to sit just to communicate, no, in a way that could be heard. So they had more control in a situation that looked like it was out of control. And so they had the experience of resetting their nervous system essentially.

As you said earlier, they started to replay some of the situations, and when it got to a point where they were like, okay, I need to change this up. They were given that power; they took their power back in that situation that had in the past been traumatizing. And it's definitely don't try this one-at-home situation.

Willow: Yeah. But I need some guidance for those kinds of things.

Deborah Kat: Absolutely. Absolutely. But I just want to say that this is a place where there is potential for healing. This is a place where there is potential for rewriting our stories, whether it's being in a place where we would like more power or being in a place where we're willing to give up our power.

Willow: I was just gonna say it's really an opportunity to bring what's not conscious to the forefront. And to shed light on the shadows that are in the background making choices for you on a subconscious level. That's the definition of the subconscious. You, you're not conscious of it.

So it seems like this is a real place, a safe place, I would say, for any of our listeners who are intrigued at all or who are like, wow, I never thought about it this way, and I'm starting to open my mind up to it, just continue to open your mind to it. Because it's, I think it's one of probably the most powerful healing modalities out there.

Leah: I think it's certainly the most underrated because I think the general assumption from a really judgmental place is that the people who are doms are, on some level, either re-traumatizing or capitalizing on the victimness of a submissive. It's, oh, these poor submissives; they have no backbone. They're wounded, weak individuals who allow themselves to be manipulated by these sadistic doms. So there's a really warped misunderstanding; I think that comes from a fear-based generalization about that whole world that really needs to be re-examined. And there are so many amazing people doing that work, and it explains these really complex parts of our psyches that are worthy of understanding.

And so I just really applaud you, Kat, for being at the forefront of that, taking yourself to those edges, and explaining the work so beautifully as you did today. Yeah, thanks for inviting us into that world and our audience into that world.

Willow: Yeah. So, so lovely.

Deborah Kat: My pleasure. And thank you so much for the opportunity.

As you said, it's a place that's very misunderstood. And I'm so grateful that more people are talking about conscious kink. And more people are bringing the possibilities of healing to this place.

Leah: Yeah. I think the thing that's so beautiful that you brought to light today is that our sexuality has so much potential for our personal growth. That it's bigger than just what we do In between the sheets. It's really about who we want to be in the world, how we want to express ourselves, how we want to love ourselves, and how we want to receive and love others.

And that there are so many ways for us to explore it, for us to get turned on and passionate up and all of that yummy, sexy, orgasmic stuff. But also how we can be tender, and be more trusting, and be more vulnerable, and invite more closeness and, most importantly, connection. And how key the art of connection is in creating a satisfying, healthy, happy life. And that intersects in so many other areas of our life. How important it is as a leader. I love that you brought in this leadership component so that we can start to identify even this more dominant role as a really healthy leader. I love all the places where it intersects.

Deborah Kat: Oh, I so appreciate this conversation and your willingness to go at all of these different dimensions and different aspects. One of the things that I really got from Tantra was this idea of the second chakra where our sexuality lives & it's all about creation. It's all about the ability to create in our lifetimes, in our lives, and to create life.

Should we choose to use it that way? But just as you said, sexuality is when we put it in this little box of the thing that we do between the sheets. It just underestimates and doesn't allow us a full range of possibilities.

01:01:17 How to Stay in Touch with Deborah Kat

Leah: So we know that you are doing this epic free event in February and interviewing all these amazing experts for your summit. I'm also wondering how people can work with you directly. How can they either work with you privately or attend some of your events? What's the best way to find you?

Deborah Kat: Absolutely. So the best place to go is www.DeborahKat.com, and there you'll find information about my events, my podcast, about all of my thoughts, both in and out of the sheets. It's really the place to learn more about me and what I'm up to. I feel so fortunate to work with people in this realm, and I'm so freaking excited about the summit. Better Sex for Couples Summit, right? Is that the title of it?

That's it. Better Sex for Couples

Leah: yeah. We'll have all these links in the show notes, so don't forget to check them out. So it'll be easy to sign up for the summit that's coming up that's free. And also to get a hold of Kat via her website.

And Kat, what's your favorite social channel these days? Where are you hanging out on social media?

Deborah Kat: Ooh, social media. I'm working on social media. I think probably the best place is to find me on Facebook. I have a page, but honestly, the best place to find me is Deborah Tantra Kat on Facebook. It's my personal page. It's a mixture of what I'm up to in the world, what is going on in the back of my head, and pictures of my cats.

Leah: Pet that pussy. I love it.

Willow: You have a pretty good Instagram page too. I like your IG.

Deborah Kat: Oh, thank you. Yes. I am so excited. I have to say I'm starting to allow myself to be supported and talk about going into that submissive place, and it's amazing

breaking down that idea that we have to do things ourselves.

Leah: Yeah. We're not meant to do these things alone. We're meant to do it in the tribe. So thanks for being a part of our tribe Kat. All three of us have lived in Santa Cruz, some of us at different times and others at the same time. And so it's nice to know that we come from a familiar place and love to have you on the podcast. Can't we have you back?

Deborah Kat: Ah, thank you so incredibly much for your time, energy, and the great space you ladies create. Thank you again.

Leah: You bet. Love, love, love everybody.

[01:03:58] The Dish

SxR Announcer: Now, our favorite part, the dish.

Willow: Deborah Kat, what a cool lady. I was so stoked to meet her and connect with her. I really enjoyed her authenticity, you know, ness, I guess. She's just a well-seasoned practitioner in our industry, so it was fun to hear her stories and be in her business.

Leah: Yeah, I loved her take on everything. I really appreciated the language she was using around the dom position and its connection to leadership. I really got a lot out of the whole world of kink and reframed it. I'm enjoying the process of finding ways to sort of normalize this part of sexual expression and relating it to many facets having to do with who we are as human beings in multiple places in our life.

Willow: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, being in that submissive or that leader role plays such an important role in so many other aspects of our life. So when we get the opportunity to experience what receptivity is, that's the way I always use the term more than submissive. When you're really in that role, this is my job; all I have to do right now is just receive this sensation, this attention, which puts you right into the present moment.

And then you go into work mode, getting the paperwork done, or getting the kids off school or whatever. You go into another mode in life, and a different capacity is available for you, like you have more availability to receive the experience you're having, whatever it is.

Leah: I mean, I just, full transparency. I am like a brand new baby to anything having to do with the world of a kink. Like it's totally new territory for me. So I'm in my sex geek world at this stage, Leah's reality of what I'm researching, what I'm trying to understand, and what I'm looking at in terms of embodying.

So for some of you that are more seasoned people in that world of sexual play, I'm not coming from a place of any expertise here. I'm just coming from a place of wanting to be a student and be filled with curiosity. So I know that there's so much range to what our kink can be. But just setting aside the tools and the games, the fantasies and the role plays, and all the sort of impact play, like all the languaging having to do with the practices and the actual form it takes on when it comes to kink.

There's something really interesting about my limited experience watching someone's experience play out on their face.

Willow: yeah, you talked about that.

Leah: Oh, it sits with me right now. It was such an expression of peace. It was not what I was expecting.

But if I think about what makes a good leader, what makes a good boss? What makes a good dom? It's this, in my limited experience, it was like watching another person in that role challenge you. But also soothe you. So it's like you're gonna challenge, you're gonna do hard things, you're gonna try things you might be a little afraid of. But in-between those challenges is a feeling of belonging, a feeling of support, a feeling of we're in this together, and you're not alone. And I think that those are a lot of qualities that a good leader or a boss also demonstrates; they challenge you, but they also have a feeling of belonging, of support, of we're in this together.

And so I'm still really fascinated about that concept and how that can play and weave into many places in our life. And I just never thought of the concept of leadership or even a boss in sex. In that way, it's really fun to look at these constructs. I'm a geek when it comes to looking at metaphors and languaging and seeing how we can apply them in multiple ways.

Willow: Absolutely. Yeah. And I feel like Deborah, because of the years of experience that she's had, really she has, doven into everything from Tantra to BDSM and done dom work, and done so many different things along the path.

She has this really holistic view of what's possible for individuals when they go through a sub-experience or a DOM experience. And I think it's probably so valuable. Her clients come to her with maybe a particular thing going on in their life. Gosh, I really can't break through this pattern I'm having at work. Or, I can't break through this pattern; I keep experiencing it in my own relationship.

Willow: And she can take the therapeutic, the healing aspect, the sensual, the spiritual, the Tantra aspect, and then this BDSM, this power dynamic that we all experience and every single day of our lives and wield it all into an experience that somebody can then shift on a visceral level. Because that's where change occurs, it is on this physical, visceral feeling the cells in our bodies change. We can't change from our heads; we must feel it in our bodies. And then having an experience like that and then shifting into your world and carrying that in a way that begins to change the world around you.

You know what? Something else I thought was fun and hadn't known was her whole Renaissance fair experience.

Willow: Oh my God, that was so cute.

Leah: That stable boy, the nobility.

Willow: So adorable.

Leah: The bar wench. And by day, they're playing these characters, and by night they're still playing these characters. And I just thought that was fun and sexy and cute. I would've loved to have had an experience going to those fairs. I never knew that was a thing, and I was totally charmed. Enchanté. Enchanté.

Willow: Yeah. She's a real treat.

Leah: So, run and listen to Debra Kat's Better Sex Podcast. If you want to listen to my episode, I'm in there somewhere. Oh, and don't forget to sign up for The Summit. Oh my gosh, I can't wait for that early 2023.

Willow: Yep. She's doing a big summit in February. Better Sex for Couples. Yeah. So if you're in a couple, you are gonna want to tune into that.

Leah: Yeah, and even if you're not a couple, you want to learn how to be a great couple. So when you aren't a couple, you know how to do it even better than ever.

Willow: That's right.

Leah: So love, love, love.