The Intersection Between Tantra & BDSM

Willow: We are here with Om Rupani, and we're so thrilled, and we're so honored and so excited that you're here with us, Om. Om's been teaching workshops in BDSM, Tantra, and man/woman relating for over two decades. He has taught internationally, from Europe to Australia to the U.S. You can find his book Prerequisites to Ecstasy on Amazon.

Willow: So we're gonna learn a lot. We've got a lot of fun, juicy questions for Om today.

Show Music: Welcome to the sex-reimagined podcast, where sex is shame-free. And pleasure forward. Let's get into the show.

Leah: Welcome, Om.

Om: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Willow: So let's start since Leah, and I are both in the more Tantric world.

[00:00:48] WHAT IS BDSM?

Willow: Let's start with this, like this crossover between BDSM and Tantra first. First, give us the definition. What is BDSM for those of us who really have no idea?

Leah: Yeah. It might be new to that idea.

Willow: Yeah.

Om: I sincerely doubt that your people need a definition of BDSM, but I will give it to you anyway.

Om: You never know. BDSM is an acronym. It stands for bondage discipline. It can be sadism or masochism, or it can also mean submission. It's kind of an umbrella term. For people who, on the outside level, may engage in things like rope bondage, things like impact play. That's what things look like from the outside.

Om: If you go to a club, if you go to a dungeon if you see somebody else doing it. BDSM is very, very visually alluring. So usually, people focus on the activities of BDSM. They will say, "I watched somebody get tied up. I watched somebody receive a flogging." But there are many layers to the exploration.

People come in at the surface level to have those physical experiences. They have seen somebody get tied up, and they say, "that looks hot. I wanna try that", or "I wanna try up my partner. I want somebody to tie me up. I wanna know what that feels like."

Om: And all that is wonderful for people to initially seek the somatic experiences or even almost the aesthetic experiences of BDSM.

[00:02:09] THE DOMINANT & THE SUBMISSIVE

Om: But I think if you go deeper into the exploration, what shows up for people is that there are these two very significant archetypes that live inside of us, of the dominant and the submissive.

Om: And these archetypes, they are very ancient, and the templates for them are already in us. And when people start making this discovery that there is a Dom inside of me, or there is a submissive inside of me, the journey kind of switches from, "I want to try that particular sexy play" to, "I think there is something inside of me that is seeking expression." There's a Dom inside of me that wants to be expressed. And there's a submissive inside of me that I have not made room for, that really wants to live and express itself. Certainly in the erotic realm, but it goes even beyond that.

Om: This has been a journey, certainly, for me. I see this journey happening for my students over and over. People come in, usually for the sensuality, for the sensation of

Om: And then they usually reach a threshold where it becomes a discovery of self-expression.

[00:03:20] SELF DISCOVERY THROUGH BDSM

It sounds like it's really about becoming more whole, like allowing these shadow parts of yourself to come into the light, to come online more.

Om: I would say very much. In the long run... I very much believe that it ends up being a journey of self-discovery. It isn't so much about adding skills to yourself. Although skills are needed. Training is needed. But I think what opens up inside of people is not that they're just accumulating skills from the outside, but they are making some discovery about themselves from the inside.

Om: And that's always very, it's very moving. I think that's where the biggest journeys are for people. That's where their biggest expressions come from. When they write their gratitude notes when they write their testimonials... I have so many of 'em on my website, where my courses are listed. I post them regularly on social media. And when people really express what they have gotten out of this, they may mention, certainly, that their sensual life is richer. But what you will hear more than anything else is, "I have discovered parts of myself that were laying dormant before".

Willow: So beautiful. So powerful.

Leah: Yeah, I love that. I think that where the biggest impact that can be made in our lives is when we encounter something that allows us to find more of who we are. And that's way more transformative than just adding another skill set.

Om: Very much so.

Leah: When you can uncover a part of yourself that you haven't had access to, then you feel like your life's been changed.

Om: It does. It does feel like self-discovery.

[00:04:51] OM'S GENESIS STORY

Leah: Yeah. Cool. So how did you get into this? What's been your Genesis story?

Om: Very much as a student. As pretty much everybody in this community is a workshop junkie, right. I've been in a primary relationship at this point for 33 years.

Willow: Wow.

Leah: Wow.

Om: I'm 52 years old. I met my primary partner when we were in college. We were 19 and 20.

Willow: Oh, my goodness. So it's been a journey, I bet.

Om: It's been a journey. So as what happens with couples, oftentimes, sensuality tends to wane as the years go by and people say, "well, how can I spice things up? What can we add?"

Om: So we started exploring classes in Tantra, classes in sensuality. We discovered so many wonderful teachers. One of my mentors and at this point, collaborator, Laurie Handlers, was one of the first teachers we found in Tantra. And Barbara Carrellas and Charles Muir.

Om: And we were like voracious students. I was more than her. She usually sent me forward, "you go, you go figure it out and bring it home to me", which works fine. So it was really "what can I find out there to improve my own life?" And that kind of journey, really, it was not a planned track. I was planning on being a photographer and filmmaker for the rest of my life.

Om: If you had caught me, I'm 52 now, I think if you had caught me when I was 30, I'd say you're gonna be teaching BDSM classes. I would've looked behind me, like, I think you've got the wrong guy.

Willow: Who are you talking to?

Om: And it wasn't planned, it wasn't, this is not a mapped out road.

Om: And maybe because of the way my temperament is, because of the way my system is, it is kind of scientific and analytical and nerdy. So I brought the same nerdiness to sensuality as well.

Om: I really wanted to understand why things work, how things work, and that kind of lent itself to being a teacher. Cause I want to explain it to myself. And then I found I could explain it to others. And if I could explain it to others, I could teach it to others. So it's kind of slowly moving in that direction. And I think, you know, I believe these things are not accidental. I believe these journeys are guided.

Willow: Absolutely.

Om: There have been so many coincidences, so many encounters that I'm like, this could not all have been a coincidence.

Willow: No, it was all meant to be. The work needed you, Om.

The people I've encountered, the directions I was nudged into. I'm like, this is not a random journey.

Om: Yeah. So, Leah, I think you met me at One Taste. So I started off by studying Tantra. And then I can't even go into the details of the story I encountered with Nicole Deone. The first time she showed up to New York to present One Taste and OMing I was there in that room in her first presentation. At Sexy Spirits, by accident.

Om: Right. And then that journey opened up. And then I kind of accidentally discovered BDSM, and then that big, big, big cavern of exploration opened up. And again, the way my brain works, I'm like, we are all working with ourselves, if something works, it has to be related. These are not separate systems, right? If they're affecting our sensuality, if they're giving us a more sensual expression, then they're working on our system, so they are interconnected. So that's kind of the way I synthesized it for myself. And then, when I teach it to me, I teach the synthesis that I perceive. Whether it's in stroking, whether it's in BDSM, whether it's in Tantra, breathwork, or whatever it is.

[00:08:17] THE PARALLELS BETWEEN TANTRA AND BDSM

Leah: Yeah, could you paint us a picture of how you intersect like Tantra in the BDSM world?

Leah: Like, what does that look like?

Om: So I actually have like a whole series going on the parallels between Tantra and BDSM. I think one of the main parallels I find between Tantra and BDSM is they're both somatic pathways. They're both somatic wisdoms.

Om: Tantra tells us that spirit is not out there in heaven someplace, that the journey is not out there, it is right here.

Om: You have a very complex body. It's seven-layered. It's not even one layered. You have these Chakras, and they hold your memories, and they hold your motivations, and they hold your energies. And this is where your blockages are. And this is where your releases are. It is all here within you. So if you need to work with any part of yourself, you work with it right here.

Om: You work with your breath, you work with your energy, you work with your trauma, right in your system, right here. If you have armoring in your heart, you deal with it right here. Right. If you have esteem issues, you deal with it right here in the third center. If you have a trauma in your first center, you deal with it right in your own base, and go through your body.

Om: It doesn't put it out there, and it doesn't even put it inside the head the way Western psychology and psychotherapy do. Like, we need to sit you down on a couch. Like, no, we need to get up your ass and release this thing.

Om: Right.

Willow: They say the soul is found in the asshole.

Om: Right. So that's great wisdom.

Om: I think in Tantra that it says it is your breath. It is your movement. It is your body and your subtle body and takes charge of it.

Willow: Yeah. Take responsibility.

Om: If you're heart chakra, if your throat Chakra is blocked, do something about it. And here are some practices you could try, right? If you had oppression and suppression in your childhood and they block your expression, and now you are stuttering when talking and you can't express yourself, you can't make any sound during sex.

Om: Okay. Get into your second chakra, get into your throat. Let's see if we can release this thing. We are the instruments. Here are the blockages. It is a somatic pathway. Right. It is not some trick in your mind, you're gonna release. And it is not some, some past life thing that is sitting in the Akashic record someplace. It's all right here.

Om: And BDSM is exactly the same wisdom. It's like, we deal with the body, we deal with the psyche, but in a very somatic way. And so it's a very hands-on direct practice that puts the individual in charge of their journey. It's your system, it's your ecstasy. It is your blockages to your ecstasy, deal with it.

Om: Right. And I think it's really brilliant that way. And it's very clear that way. it kind of really brings it down to the individual to be in charge of their revolution, of their release, of claiming the parts of themselves that may have gotten tied up along the way and are blocked for whatever reason.

Om: So I find that very much parallel.

Willow: I love how matter-of-fact you are about it. You have a choice. You could do this, what you've always done, how's that working for you? Or you could start to explore something else and learn skills that are gonna lead to opening up places inside of you that you didn't even know existed.

Om: So that part of throwing the responsibility on the individual is very much in the framework of BDSM. That is what consent is. It's your system. Do whatever the hell you want with it. You wanna put hooks in your back and be dangled from the ceiling? It's your system. It's your system.

Willow: You get to choose.

Om: Trust me. There have been traditional practices and many religious traditions that have been equally bat-shit crazy.

Leah: Right. Yeah, sure. Right.

Om: You think only BDSM people do flogging? Not so. No. You can go to your Christian monastic traditions, they do self-flogging.

Willow: Right, exactly.

Om: They may do it in the form of penance, and we do it in a different framework, but I'm like, these are not coincidences. So much of what we do in one realm, we are doing in the other realm. And I think ultimately, what we are doing is we are hacking our systems.

In the more traditional traditions, they had a more spiritual, religious framework. Tantra and BDSM kind of take away a bunch of that, and put the person and their somatic reality in charge of it. Which I think is liberating to some degree.

[00:12:40] "I DON'T KNOW" IS A VERY DANGEROUS SENTENCE

Leah: So what do you say to someone who doesn't, who says they don't know what they want?

Leah: They know something's missing.

Om: Yeah.

Leah: They're not sure where to start.

Om: Well, I tell people, "I don't know" is a very dangerous sentence. "I don't know" is very dangerous, but it can also be a very fruitful sentence. But if "I don't know" is being used as a device to shirk responsibility for your experience, you're playing with fire. Because what happens when you say, "I don't know," to a partner is you're saying, "well, you decide what to do., And I will decide whether I find you right or wrong." That is a really bad relationship. It's a very bad relationship setup.

Leah: It is, yeah.

Om: That is against taking responsibility for yourself. That is actually not being in consent. There is a better way to do it. I have a whole module on this.

The better way to do it is, "I don't know what to do here, but I want to try. Ah, can we proceed gently?"

Willow: Love that.

Leah: Lovely reframe.

Om: "Can I change my yes to a no? Can we pause and stop if I feel like it?" Set up your parameters. And then, within that, say, "I would like to have an experience. I would like to make my discovery. I would like to take a small step in this direction 

Willow: Right.

Leah: That's beautiful.

Om: And I think that's a great way to explore a new direction. So they can say, "this is my ride, I take responsibility for it. And if it turns out to be a bad ride, I will know not to do that again."

Willow: Yeah. Yeah. And I like how you're talking about setting it up with a conversation, to kind of set some parameters and boundaries, like, "look, this is new for me. I haven't done this before..."

Om: Absolutely.

Willow: "...I would like to try, I don't know how far I wanna go with it. I'm not sure. Is it okay if we pause? You know, are there safety words that need to be involved?"

When you study with Source Tantra, every Tantric ritual has a whole initiatory process where you talk about your intentions for the journey with your boundaries, your fears, and your desires.

[00:14:47] BUILDING A BDSM SCENE

Willow: I'm just curious, OM, do you have something like that inside the BDSM world?

Om: It is absolutely built-in.

Willow: Right. You're handing it over consciously.

Om: Yeah. You are doing a kind of agreed-upon dance together.

Om: And I fill this out for every single scene I do. So this is not something you fill out once, and that's your preference for...

Willow: ...even your primary partner you've been with for 33 years?

Om: Yeah. Even when we teach... not with my primary partner.

Willow: Okay.

Om: Not with her.

Leah: Okay. Three decades and you kinda have the system figured out?

Om: Certainly we would speak, and we would talk, but certainly with anybody else...

Om: And when we do workshops, every, every major scene the students do, they practice filling this out with each other.

Om: And so that's how they find their yeses. The Doms fill it out, and the Submissive fills it out from their perspective. They find their yeses, and they build a scene around their yeses.

Willow: And how long does the scene usually go for?

Om: Not very long. I think even a really full scene, I would say an hour, most. Yeah.

Om: Yeah. And you can certainly do shorter scenes. You can do a 10-minute scene, and it can be really rich.

Willow: Oh, wow.

Leah: That's really neat.

Willow: Love that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:53] TALKING DIRTY

Willow: Now, we are both kind of curious about dirty talk and how that plays into BDSM.

Om: Dirty talking?

Whether you're the receiver or the giver, how does dirty talk play a role in BDSM and Tantra?

Om: Dirty talking is like the layman's term. In BDSM, you would be a lot more specific about what you are doing with the dirty talking?

Om: One form of dirty talking would be simply a sensual connection. just saying, "I love this part of your body. I love the way that this part of your body is looking right now. This is what I wanna do to you."

Om: That can almost be a form of objectification, that can almost be a form of expressing your desire for your partner. And who doesn't want that?

Willow: Right. It's hot.

Om: But that's really not the limit of using your words and communication, and dirty talking during a scene, if you take it further, it would go into what we would refer to as humiliation play.

Do you want to be called whore? Do you want to be slut shamed? Do you want to go into those areas where you're afraid somebody will call you, Do you want your lover to call you that at the right moment?

[00:17:10] PSYCHOLOGICAL KINK

Now you're in psychological play territory. Because you're playing with your archetypes. You're playing with your identity. You're playing with your fears. And that can take many, many turns, right?

Willow: So powerful.

Om: At one level, it can be objectification at another level. It can be hit by insecurities.

Om: It can be worship. It can be very positive. That's the easier part, who doesn't like being worshiped?

Om: But the other part can be, humiliate me for the body parts that I'm insecure about. One of the most common places men like verbal play is to humiliate me on my small cock.

Willow: And so what does that do?

Leah: Yeah. Yeah. Why is that?

Because we are carrying this charge within us anyway. Every man fears he can't satisfy his woman.

Om: Every man fears he is not equipped, and she will find somebody else who is better equipped, who will thrill her more, and she will leave me for him.

Om: Every woman fears my man's gonna find a younger woman, and I am aging, and these bitches keep getting younger. Fuck 'em all. So we don't, we don't shy away from any of this shit when we do BDSM. We go into these areas of our psyche, these narratives we are running anyway, these fears that we are holding anyway, and instead of tucking them under the carpet, we just hit them head on.

Willow: So there's real bravery involved.

Om: It is. This is also why the container is needed. An agreement is needed. Because you can't go into this thing unprepared. It'll be disastrous. You have to, as the submissive, ask for it. Right? The submissive should say, "I am getting insecure about this part. I need to hear these words to deal with this fear."

Om: And here's the thing, once you deal with it, there is so much sensation in it, that if you're able to claim it, not only could you have released it, oftentimes it gets converted to turn-on.

Willow: Ah, tell us more about that. So you're going into these places...

Om: This is the odd thing, again, this is also very parallel to the Tantric wisdom.

Om: That energy is energy, and if you release the energy, it will be an orgasmic experience. Why? Because orgasm is nothing but the movement of energy. And these places where you're holding these clumps of energy, if you find a way to release them, it may create a tremendous amount of pleasure & release your system.

I really wanna highlight that. I think you're saying something that's really powerful. Oftentimes when I talk about how I would define an orgasm, it's energy and movement. And when energy is moving, that's pleasurable, it's like laughing or crying or a good poop, you know? It feels good to move that.

Om: Absolutely.

Leah: And when energy is stuck, it's painful. It's like my bad back or my bad knee. But we have these bad thoughts that we often keep so covered. Like nobody sees me, nobody sees me in this pain, nobody sees me in these stuck thoughts. And in fact, I don't even wanna look in the mirror with those thoughts.

Leah: And so I think what's powerful about this, like messaging and how these two places can come together, is what if you have someone? And in Tantra, we talk about it in a more worshipful or gentler packaging around it. That's like, can you give the pain a sound?

Leah: But what I see that's different, that's more radical, that's more kind of in your face... but I can also see how seeing yourself in the pain and in the contraction of what you're afraid will be exposed is equal to the amount of pleasure and relief you can feel when you are that brave.

Leah: When you have someone that's very much holding and saying, "no, you don't get to be in denial."

Om: Yeah.

Leah: You know... we're doing this together. We're mapping this out. You're not alone.

Om: Exactly. So you kind of laid it out well. I can clarify two points that I think really show up, which is that this stuff is here already. These narratives are here already. And if they're here already, they're blocking movement and pleasure.

Leah: Which is important because if they're here already, you're not imposing yourself on someone. Because I think if there's a fear that if I go into BDSM, someone's gonna impose something on me that might be dangerous, that I'm afraid of.

Om: Right. That was the second point, which is to do this kind of play well, the Dom is completely uninvested in the Submissive's narrative. Okay. Right. So if a man says, "humiliate me for my small cock", if the female dominatrix is doing her job well, she doesn't care what size his cock is. She only cares that this is the narrative you are holding. It's your narrative. It's like, you're not in your body, and I need to go address that. I'm not invested, and you're not, right?

Willow: A good therapist would not take it on. Yeah.

[00:22:32] KEYS TO BEING A GOOD DOM

Om: Yeah. So this is also what the Dom training is needed for. The Dom actually holds a kind of cool indifferent energy. "This is submissive shit, I don't really give a damn. This is your narrative. I am interested in your release, but I'm not interested in where you are stuck. It's not my stuff. I am not judging you where you are judging you. Yeah. But to move your knot, I need to get in there and exert pressure, and that may hurt like hell."

Om: That's the process. But I'm not really invested either way. I'm neither invested in inflicting pain on you nor do I take your knot personally. If you want to keep your knot, keep your knot. I don't care.

Willow: And it seems like there's a threshold where the pain then becomes the pleasure.

Om: It does.

Willow: Which is a very specific, like turning point. Is there anything you would wanna say about that?

[00:23:24] EROTICIZING TRAUMA

Om: It is. I think it's a very, very complex structure that oftentimes this happens. You know, there's a wonderful quote, there's a wonderful book by Jack Moore and The Erotic Mind, and there are many troubling premises and insights in there. And one of them is we eroticize our traumas. We eroticize these clumps of energies in our system. And this is a very uncomfortable fact. Why do we do this? I don't know. From a Tantric energetic perspective, you can say, well, it is energetic everywhere there's a clump of energy. Once you release that energy, it is going to be orgasmic, right? So in a way, where you are stuck is kind of a source for orgasm; where you are stuck is where energy can be reaped for pleasure. So it's kind of a double bind. Where you have a knot in your body is exactly where release and pleasure is possible.

Leah: Yeah. That concept reminds me of how the erotic theme operates. That there's oftentimes a bridge between something that we've been ashamed of early on that the psyche gets an imprint from. And it oftentimes goes unexplored because we're, we are ashamed of it.

Leah: Whereas, if we can look at it, then it opens up to all these like hot sexual movies.

Om: Right. I often joke with my students that if there were absolutely no sexual repression or trauma in the human race, there would be no kink or BDSM.

Willow: Yeah. I love that.

Om: It's tension and release. Yeah. It's tension and release.

Om: We are all going to be traumatized. We are all going to get fucked over. We are all going to be humiliated. We are all going to have contractions in our system. And if you can find a way to release and reclaim those, it's fun. That's the game we have been playing all along. Now, if we came here as completely immaculate Budha who never gets stained by life, there'd be nothing to release.

Om: It'd be very boring. Yeah. And there would be no kink. There would be no Tantra. There'd be no need. We would be just perfect. We'd be like perfect running engines that don't need a tune-up.

Willow: Right. But we live in these physical bodies.

Om: Yeah, but that's certainly not the human game we're here to play, so I don't think we have anything to worry about.

Willow: Do you have any, like, miracle stories maybe around someone transforming their health in some way that you can share?

Om: Biggest miracle stories happen when people release things in completely inexplicable ways.

Om: Right. So I can give you one, this is a story Laurie and I like to tell because it happened in our class, right? I don't even know how to make this sound coherent... so I'll give it to you.

Om: We had a woman in our class who was Chinese, who was born in China. Her parents did not want a daughter. Her parents wanted a son, Chinese people prefer sons. All through her childhood, all through her youth, her parents basically said, "you're not wanted; we wanted a boy." We can imagine what that did to that woman's psyche, her esteem, her desirability, and her place in the world. Very deep, first chakra or trauma. You're not wanted by your own parents. They would like to tell her that, right? Deep wound. Now, how the hell do you release that wound? I have no idea. I wouldn't even. But this woman, after being in therapy for 15 years and after doing many things, came into our class. And this was just an exercise. She did a 15-minute exercise in rope bondage. Tying your wrists together. It was just an exercise. And she just had a meltdown. Right. She had a complete meltdown. Which is completely fine. People go into the process all the time, and we make room for it. It's part of the thing we do in Tantra. Everything & anything that happens is okay. As long as it's genuine and the process is real, it's great.

Om: And somehow, from that tiny rope scene, she got a release in that part of her thing. I have no idea how. I couldn't start to claim how that release happened through rope bondage. But things like this happen in this circle, in this world, on a regular basis. Where people will say, "this scene just released something. I have not been able to let go for 5, 10, 15 years in therapy".

Om: And I think that the logic of it is exactly the same logic that Tantra uses, as we are moving the system somatically. And so much of our modern psychotherapeutic process is sitting your ass on a couch and yacking away.

Willow: From your head...

Om: ...from your head, which doesn't really move anything. Right. It's like the Woody Allen scenario of the guy who's been in therapy for 15 years, and knows everything about himself. He has not become one bit less neurotic after 15 to 25 years of therapy. He is as messed up as he was years ago. But now he knows a lot about his neurosis.

Willow: Yeah. We have to change somatically.

Om: He knows exactly the origin of what my mother did... that event when I was seven years old... that's how I got messed up. I'm still messed up.

Willow: He's very clear about the storyline.

Om: Right. But I think when we address our system somatically, this can happen in Tantra, this can happen in breath work, this can happen in emotional release work, and this happens in medicine journeys. Medicine journeys are also a hammer to the system when they work well. They just go in there and they dislodge something that is really old. And all of a sudden, you don't have any choice but to deal with it and hopefully release it from your system. But it doesn't do it by way of, by a path of, you understanding yourself.

Om: It just goes and hits the energy so hard. That movement just results from it. So I think this is the way any path that addresses us somatically has that power. And it's very hard to track down what exactly happened. What hit what, and what released what?

[00:29:28] DOM BURN-OUT

Leah: Can you say more about the power of separating the role of giver and receiver?

Om: It's absolutely crucial, it's absolutely crucial. Certainly in the BDSM format. This is also where people learn that these are almost like two beautiful archetypes. And the best analog for that is like partner dancing, like ballroom partner dancing, like Argentina, tango, like the Waltz. Two people are coming together & they are dancing complementary steps. They're not dancing identical steps. They're dancing complimentary steps, but when they dance them well together, they create one dance. Right? Now, the Dom and Sub dynamic is very much that dynamic. I think in the Tantra model also, there's white Tantra, but if you're working with a partner, generally, there is this polarity of giving and receiving. That one person is creating a space and handling somebody else's system masterfully.

Om: And the other person is kind of allowing themselves to be at effect and surrendering to their system and allowing their system to be moved. In a way, they can't move it themselves.

Leah: How does that relate into the pouring back into the Dom? my guess, and, and please add to this, or correct me if I'm wrong, is that when one is deeply received by someone who's surrendering... who's allowing the presence of that person to deeply affect them... that that's a part of what the giver or the Dom then receives back, is someone trusting their body to them.

Om: Right. I think that is also true. I think being received well is a gift, right? So I give people four ways to win. People always argue for having only two ways to win. I dunno why that is. So, yes, it's great if I, let's say, I give to you, and I'm masterful in what I'm giving to you, and you receive me fully and graciously.

Om: If you receive me fully and graciously, that is deeply satisfying to me. You received from me, and I gave to you, and there was a wonderful transference. So was that interaction satisfying for me? Absolutely. But energy usually also traveled from me to you. Right? And if I keep pouring into you, even if you keep receiving me graciously and I keep pouring into you, I'm gonna get exhausted at some point.

Leah: Right? Yeah.

Om: And believe it or not, you're gonna turn bratty at some point.

Willow: Right. Totally.

Leah: You bet your bottom dollar I will.

Om: If I keep giving to you and you keep receiving, your graciousness will actually go down because human beings are assholes.

Leah: Yep.

Om: We are.

Willow: True that.

Om: I saw this at one taste. It didn't really work, doing it one-sidedly. Energy really has to go back. Besides, I have desires and needs too. When do I get to be in the receiving position? And when do you get to be in the master position? Where you get to be in your mastery, and you get to move my system. Don't you want that mastery also?

Om: So why rob yourself of that? Right. And if I stay completely in the giving position all the time, I will get exhausted and resentful. That's true. And this happens in the BDSM dynamic. It's a common pitfall. We have a word for it. We call it top drop. Okay. Dom's usually come in, and they want to give, and they wanna pour out because they want to be in their mastery because they are good at it.

Om: They want submissives you can receive well from them, but if all they do is pour out, they're gonna burn out.

Leah: Well, you see that marriage all the time, too.

Om: All the time.

Leah: Because you've got one partner who's the initiator and the other partner that might be the avoidant. And you see that sexual dynamic becomes really frustrating.

Om: Yeah. And I think people rob themselves of their mastery when they only say, my job is to receive graciously. Receiving graciously is beautiful. But if you never learn to handle your partner system, I think that's half the journey.

Om: Yeah. In Tantra

Leah: there is a real emphasis on, like, being in balance. Like, notice where are your weaknesses? And that's the thing you wanna go study. You wanna strengthen the part that you do avoid. You wanna strengthen the part that you're not good at. Right. You know, and most people come in the door going, well, I'm either a really good receiver. I'm a really good giver. And I kinda suck at the other one.

Leah: Yeah. And to allow that to be your challenge.

Willow: Yeah, again, becoming more whole.

[00:33:41] WHERE HEALING AND NARCISSISM MEET

Om: Very much. I think that even this conversation has so many layers. So one way you can cap this off is this; people, again, often think that I have burdens I'm carrying, and I need to receive healing. And if I receive the right healing, I will finally be free. Right? And you take that to the right guru, to the right master, and they will say, "go work in the kitchen, 12 hours a day." And you're like, what?

Om: "Go clean the toilets; go do this labor 16 hours a day."

Om: "But, I came here to receive healing. I came to receive your rays of healing."

Om: "No, go work in the fucking toilet. Go pour into other people; go pour into people who have less than you."

Willow: So then you're not, so ME focused...

Om: ...Do that for six months, and you realize, "oh my God, I can't even remember my bullshit anymore".

Om: So what makes you think healing only happens when you're receiving shit from people? What do you think the only way healing happens is when Jesus is shining his light on you. What of the path to healing is you go with Jesus and go help the lepers. You pour out.

Leah: You go be in service; it's the same thing with AA. You know, it's the same message.

Willow: That's why healers do so much healing from their work.

Om: Yeah, I think this is where I think modern healing meets narcissism. This is where people go into workshop, after workshop, after workshop, receive healings, receive sessions, receive healings... then I'm like, amazed that you're not healed yet. What's going on?

Willow: Yeah. You, so you still need to keep going, what's up with that?

Om: Yeah. Maybe you need to go wash the latrine for 12 hours today. See if that changes things. So I don't even believe in the premise that the only way to get healed is to have other people pour into you. I don't really believe that. I think that premise is flawed. And I think the modern lifestyle, especially the workshop lifestyle, the retreat lifestyle is demonstrating that to the nth degree. Because people have become consumers of experiences.

Om: They put their money down to receive experiences. There are people, I see people doing this even with medicine journeys. I'm gonna do another ayawaska journey. Here's 500 bucks; hit me! But that didn't work. Here's another 500 bucks; hit me again! Yeah. What makes you think this is the only path to releasing your bullshit from the past?

Willow: Yeah, there's an integration process that happens when you then pour out, when you give.

Om: Yeah. Very much so.

Willow: You get to learn who you're, what you're capable of, and who you can actually be.

Om: That's why in most traditions in India there is a very simple and big concept of Seva, of pouring out.

Om: Yeah. Right. If you join any order, they will basically give you labor to do. And that is your spiritual path. They will say that I want healing. This is how you heal. You serve other people. That's right. You don't sit here healing. You don't get healed by sitting at your guru's feet all day long. Listen to the beautiful words, you work your ass off.

Leah: Because many times in our depression, in our suffering, and our anxiety, it's so self-consumed. You're so over-identified with all the miserable sensations that you're experiencing, all you're suffering, all your misery it's so self-centered you're really obsessed with it. And if you can redirect your attention from you and the hell that's inside, and start thinking about how I can serve somebody else? Yeah. Then you become less self-centered. You get to experience this opening inside of yourself, and then you get to see your efforts help other people flourish. And then again, now you've got that system of rebound.

Willow: Now we're living in this world, and this society where it's "I" iPhone and "I" this and "I" have everything. And I, I, I, I, you know, yeah.

Om: I think this is also the crucial flaw in the psychotherapy model. It just dwells on the person who's coming in for the session. And they just pay money to talk about themselves all the time.

Willow: Yeah, and it's, you know, it's, so synonymous with Chinese medicine, which the whole, you know, Taoist philosophy behind Chinese medicine is like, let's put so much good into that organ that the bad doesn't have any room to be there anymore.

Om: Yeah. So I think as long as we have a balance, we are on the right track.

Om: I'm not saying we need to get rid of receiving from other people, but I think in today's culture, I do see kind of a binging, consumptive energy that I'm gonna just receive healings, and receive insights, receive therapy.

Leah: And so how does that relate with, like, cause oftentimes, in the BDSM conversation, uh, what I hear a lot about is, oh, I identify as being a dom or I identify as being a sub.

Leah: How, how does that play into this thing that we're talking about, this balance? Cause it sounds like what you're suggesting is that because we want this balance to be there, are you also saying that it's equally as important for you to learn the skillset of Dom and submissive, or can someone just stay in one realm?

Om: Most people tend to stay in one realm. Okay. Once again, I think the main reason for that is these are not extraneous qualities people are taking on. When people come into my class, when people come into the Tantra BDSM class that I teach with Laurie, we have all students play the Dom and the sub in every exercise.

Om: And the point of that is, you make your discoveries, you feel into both archetypes, and you feel which archetype resonates with your system more. This is a process of discovery. This is not a process of putting something externally onto you. Maybe a few people will discover they enjoy both archetypes.

Om: There are those kinds of shapeshifters. It's a matter of temperament, personality, and how you're constructed. Most people will tend to gravitate to saying the submissive archetype is calling me more. The Dom archetype is calling me more. So our job as teachers is to give people enough of those experiences of occupying those spaces, so they can make that discovery.

Om: And the other advantage of playing both roles is this is kind of a two-person dance. It's good if you kind of know the entire dance. It's good if you know both positions. Yeah. Because they're not separate. And it's good to know both positions and then realize I kind of enjoy this more. This fits more with my temperament.

Om: And within that, this is about creating functioning relationships. If you realize you're leaning towards this archetype, you're like, well, then I need to find a partner who's this archetype. And then how do we make this thing work? We make this thing work by nourishing each other. We make this work by taking care of each other. It really isn't complicated.

[00:40:22] BDSM AND LONG-TERM RELATIONSHIPS

Willow: Yeah. So that's a great lead-in, how does the practice of BDSM then play into long-term relationships? Yeah. The ways that people relate to each other?

Om: My best solution, when long-term couples come to me for coaching, is to teach them BDSM.

Willow: Love that.

Om: My goal for them is to go from husband and wife to Dom and Sub. Yes. Because by the time they come into coaching, our therapy, their husband and wife archetypes have fallen flat. They're not working anymore. Their polarization has disappeared. Husbands and wives hate each other and resent each other at this point. Right? They have both miraculously come to a place where they both feel I am giving more than I'm receiving in this relationship. Which is mathematically impossible. But it happens all the time. Ask people who are at their last thread in a relationship, and they will both say, I'm pouring more into this relationship than I'm getting out of it.

Om: I'm like, that's actually theoretically not possible.

Willow: Oh yeah, we see that all the time. Yeah.

Om: But the archetype is so messed up that they almost need a new  template. And the best offer I can make is to learn to occupy the Dom archetype, learn to occupy the submissive archetype, learn to create small scenes within these two archetypes, and see if that will revive something in you. Oftentimes it does. It's the best solution I have. It's not a foolproof solution. Yeah. But it is the best solution I have found for arriving at stale and resentful, old relationships that are not working anymore. It certainly can put a surge in the erotic department right away. Which is not nothing, which is huge.

Willow: No, that's huge. It's huge. Massive.

Willow: It is huge. That can change the entire relationship.

Leah: Yeah. That gives hope.

Om: Yeah. I can't tell you how many therapists and couples therapists, regularly trained couple therapists, come to do my work. And I'm not exaggerating. All of them will confide, "Om, we know nothing about eros. We have no fucking idea how to create better sex between couples. The number one reason they come to us is that they're not having sex. And we haven't a clue how to recharge the erotic life. We have not been trained."

Om: Right. I think academia and traditional therapy have really dropped the ball in this area.

Willow: Yeah, absolutely.

Om: The best thing I've seen traditional therapy do is they're good at, kind of umpiring better communication between a couple. They are good at that. They will get them to start talking to each other without biting each other's heads off, which is not nothing.

Willow: Which is useful.

Om: But as far as reaching beyond that point and really sparking their Eros again, they have no clue.

Om: So that's why when they come into my class, and they hear the conversation we are having right now, they're like, well, this works. Right, but they're not trained in this. They're not trained in this. They have no idea how to bring this to their clients.

Leah: So what's your first actionable step when working with a couple that is in that exact position?

Om: Come and learn the basics of Dom / Sub dynamic and learn to occupy those archetypes and have short scenes with each other.

Om: When you are stepping into your Dom arch type, when you're a submissive archive, leave behind the husband and wife, the boyfriend and the girlfriend, the man, and the woman who have been together for 15 years and now are, can barely look at each other. Try on these new archetypes, this new dance, and see if you can meet each other in a fresh place that's pleasurable to you both.

Willow: And, of course, all of this...

Om: See if you can nourish each other in a way that is new and functional at this point.

[00:43:59] BDSM IS A GIFT TO US FROM THE GAY AND QUEER COMMUNITY

Willow: Yes, exactly. And all of this is equally applicable to bisexual relationships and all genders?

Om: Absolutely. Yeah, this is the great part. It does really apply to all relationships. BDSM, if anything, is a gift to us from the gay and queer community. BDSM is a gift to us originally from gay men and leather men.

Leah: That's right.

Om: They have been the secret mystery school that has cultivated this area because they badly needed polarity. They needed polarity. Today, we're all over politics. But at least even 20 years ago, they're like, Nope, I'm the husband, he's the wife. They understood that there needs to be a difference. That needs to be a polarity. I am the daddy. He's the little boy. They understood all that dynamic. They understood there's a lot of heat and sex in it. Right. We are kind of inheriting their wisdom, so that straight couples can now do daddy-little-girl play.

Om: We are receiving their gifts. Yeah. Right.

[00:45:02] THE CHALLENGES OF BEING A DOMINANT MAN IN TODAY'S CULTURE

Willow: So Om, I'm so curious, you know, I mean, this journey found you, this path came to you and has been birthed through you. And it's a very unique one. It's a very powerful one. And I'm just curious, like, what's been one of the more challenging pieces for you? Of just, you know, having this expressed through you in your life?

Om: I think at the personal level, it has been dealing with the misconception around what dominance and submission is, around what a Dom does, around being a dominant man. Because these are not popular archetypes right now. So anybody who hears this, first of all, people don't understand what consensual domination and submission is, right?

Om: This is the big, big schism. When people hear dominance and submission, they assume these people are damaged. Some people are abusing somebody who is just too weak to defend themselves. They assume non-consensual domination and submission. And that's a really ugly feel to walk into. It's an ugly feeling to have to defend yourself over and over again. That they assume only damaged people are doing this, only abusive people are doing this to people who are suckers for abuse, right?

Om: Because they don't really understand 2 healthy, sane, consensual people are doing this dance together of their own volition, for their own benefit. And they're only coming together because they're deciding to, and they can walk away at any point.

Om: The outer culture really doesn't understand their clarity. They don't have a clear concept of consensual domination and submission. And that's the biggest kind of ugliness you have to walk into if you go public with this. Because there's a lot of that energy out there, right? And again, all the places where there's wounding in our culture of non-consensual domination and submission, it flares up.

Om: So blunt example, if you see a woman beating the shit out of a man, nobody gives a shit. "You go, girl, it's about time. You slap that man!"

Om: But what are they doing? They're approaching it from a political angle. They think men have suppressed women. It's time for women to beat the crap out of men. I'm like, they're both ugly ideas. That's not what people are doing.

Om: When you see a woman, female, dominant handling a male submissive, that is not what's happening there. It is two loving people doing something. But the political mind will say, a female dominatrix stomping over a male submissive. "Yeah, about time!" You show a male Dom slapping two submissives.

Om: They would wanna put you in jail. They think it's two different phenomena. They're not. It's a Dom and a Sub, consensual, both of them. But the political mind interprets two things entirely differently.

[00:47:58] HISTORICAL TRIGGERS

Om: You want even a charger example, here it is. See a black woman beating the shit out of two black men, two, two white. A black, hot dominatrix, all strapped up, has got two muscled white boys on a fucking collar dragging them across the room. Everybody will go. "Yeah!" Yeah. How about a white Dom dragging two black women in colors across the room?

Willow: No, totally different.

Om: Flare up! Flare up, and understandable. Understandable. It is hitting the historical triggers.

Om: Yeah, it is hitting the unhealed wound, especially in this country. That's this black-and-white thing in this country. It's not everywhere. So when Americans see a white man dominating two black women, they only see one thing. Right. They see abuse. They see the perpetuation of abuse. They see patriarchy.

Om: And I'm like, all your perceptions are bullshit. That's not what's happening in any of these configurations. What's happening in all of these configurations is consenting adults that are coming together and saying, "I want this for me." I want this for me. And people... we have a hard time, whether it's to me as a public speaker and teacher, whether it's the practitioners who want to share, even with their girlfriends, "I like doing this".

Om: You run into this real burden of history, of culture, of the trauma that is in society around non-consensual domination and submission. People don't understand consensual domination and submission.

[00:49:39] SO IF YOU DON'T "KNOW" WHAT YOU WANT, IT'S TIME TO FIND OUT.

Leah: I think that's an interesting tie-in to the beginning of our conversation with the question around, what if you don't know... what if your answer is... "I don't know what I want. I don't know what I need." That's the danger of that "I don't know" when we have an uninvestigated archetypical viewpoint. It's not investigated. We don't know the pleasure that's possible in these other parts of our mind that holds fear.

Leah: Right. And so that's like the outer expression of the uninvestigated self and of sexuality, of pleasure, of, you know, what's covered up in secret. The uninvestigated parts of our shame. And, yeah, I think that's an interesting circle back as we kind of round out this interview.

Om: It is a circle back, and there's a lot of energy stuck in there.

Om: And if you go in there and play it and release it, there's a lot of eros stuck in there.

Leah: Yeah. Well, this is a really...

Om: Here's the dark part about all this, it's not that all that trauma is not real, is that if you actually learn how to play with that trauma. You can really get off on all of it.

Leah: Yes, you can. And that's the happy, healed, whole self.

Om: That is the happy whole reason part. Yes. But that part is extremely uncomfortable to people.

Leah: Yeah. But that's the reason why.

Om: That you can take all these traumas and flip 'em on their ear and have an orgasm on them.

Leah: Yes. And so, I just wanna like future tense this for the audience is this is why you investigate that part of you that doesn't know.

Om: But you need courage.

Leah: Yeah, you need courage.

Willow: And support. I think you need guidance.

Leah: And support and some hand holding.

Willow: Yeah, guidance is good.

Om: You can't have contempt for investigation, and there's a lot of contempt for investigation in the BDSM world right now.

[00:51:17] FREE GIFT FROM OM!!

Leah: Yeah. So, Om please tell us a little bit about your gift, that you so graciously are bestowing on our audience members.

Om: Actually, it segues into the conversation here, because people have such a hard time finding an entry point into BDSM, because they are so burdened with all this thing that I'm like, there are many, many people who are never going to come into a paid offering. So I'm like, okay, I need to offer stuff for free for people.

Om: So they can at least comment without any investment, actually have these conversations, and at least take small steps into examining this. And to that degree, I have a free kind of course, conversation on the topic of the taboo of feminine submission. I think it is the biggest taboo there is in our culture right now.

Om: And it's a free course on my teaching platform at www.Omrupani.com and it doesn't cost you anything. And if you're at least interested in thinking about this, hearing some viewpoints, and reading about it, you can do that self-study course and conversation.

Om: The other one is kind of bold and crazy on my part. I like to see what real BDSM scenes are like.

Leah: Cool.

Om: Cause people have very bad ideas. So I've created a whole library of real scenes.

Willow: That's amazing. That's an amazing gift.

Om: People can watch for free.

Leah: Yeah. You watch for free?

Om: Also, on my platform, you can watch for free. I have demos in there because I made a kind of demo and scene library because in every class I teach, I have to demo body safety. I have to teach them basic rope techniques. I have to teach them basic impact play techniques. So I'm like, instead of repeating these modules over and over again, I'm going to videotape them, put them in. So when I teach my classes, I can send my students, I'm like, oh, please watch these demos.

Willow: Yeah. So there's never been a better opportunity to dip your toes in my friends.

Om: Yeah. And then you can watch what real scenes are like and even hear about how these scenes were constructed, and what the desires were that went into constructing these scenes, so you can demystify it for yourself.

Willow: Those are powerful gifts, 2 of them! Thank you so much.

Om: Others are on the way, but these two are already up and running on www.OmRupani.com.

Willow: Fantastic.

Leah: Great. Well, I'm looking forward to, you know, this is a newer world for me.

Willow: I know, I'm like, when's the next workshop, Om?

Leah: I don't know when I'll move in that direction...

Leah: But it's so powerful when we begin to challenge ourselves to open our mind, become more educated, and that way, we can make it an informed opinion. Don't create judgments that you haven't even explored.

Om: Listen, nobody's really interested in changing anybody's mind, quite frankly. Bluntly put, nobody's that interested in you. Nobody's trying to convince you of anything.

Willow: You're not that special.

Om: This is entirely up to you. Nobody drags anybody into this realm. People come because their desires are calling them.

Om: Nobody forced women to buy 150 million copies of 50 Shades of Gray. Nobody held a gun to your head. Women bought that book, women masturbated to that book. Nobody made you do it. So there's a lot of desire around this and make it accessible to women, and they, they run at it.

Om: So I think we are naive if we think anybody's trying to sell you anything on here, or this is a novel concept. When I couldn't get away from this book. I'm like, everybody told me this is a crappy book and I'm standing in line buying, I don't know what, and there it is at the drugstore. And I'm like, I gotta read this fucking book. It is, it's in my face.

I had to read what this book is about. So it's like nobody made that book that popular, women made that book that popular. Nobody forced it on people.

Willow: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the shadows, right? The shadow side of the feminine hasn't gotten to be expressed. And part of it is this, like, these eons of oppression for the feminine voice and feminine sexuality.

Om: And the feminine wants to be ravished, there are no 2 ways around it. Yeah.

Willow: And there ain't nothing wrong with that.

Leah: That's right. Spank me and feed me cake, Okay?

Willow: That's right.

Om: So, I might as well learn how to do it well.

Willow: Tie me up and give me chocolate. This was really fun. Thank you for bringing us inside your work, there are so many questions, and what a beautiful place to leave a connection with more questions.

Willow: Absolutely.

Leah: It's a wonderful place to keep coming back to.

Om: Thanks for having me. It was great.

Leah: Yeah, thank you, Om.

Willow: Okay. Blessings, we'll see you all in the next interview.

[00:55:31] THE DISH

Show Music: Now, our favorite part. The dish,

Show Music: Welcome back

Leah: at sex reimagined with Dr. Willow and Leah, and wow. We are processing our conversation with Om Rupani.

Willow: Yeah. There was a lot to process from that one, I think, especially for Leah and me, who tend to be more on the like energetic Tantric side of sexuality, expansion...

Leah: ...sacred. Like this is a definite...

Willow: spiritual, spiritual side....

Leah: Yeah, I don't wanna say it's a departure from that.

Willow: No, it's almost like a deepening.

[00:56:13] Marker

Leah: Yes. That was what my experience was. I don't think I could have been ready for what I'm ready for now. I needed a softer approach first. Tantra was gentle, sacred, worshipful, and reverent. I needed that reverence as my starting point. But at this junction in my life, like the next big turn is going in that direction, I think.

Willow: I am feeling the same. Yeah, for sure. And I totally agree. I mean, and you've been on this path, you've been teaching Tantra much, much longer than I have. And so, you know, it's so fascinating that we're both right now, we're like, oh, okay, there's this other doorway, there's this other threshold to cross through.

Willow: And I was just speaking with another friend the other night, that she had crossed that threshold like two years ago. And she was telling me just like how much she has learned about herself through that process. And then I had another friend or client actually, who was like, I'm interested in it, but I, but I don't know if I'm ready for it because she hasn't even really had good sex in her life.

Willow: You know, she hasn't even had that experience. And so there really is a readiness. I think that comes on your sexual expansion journey for opening yourself up to the possibility of BDSM and what that means. I mean, God, there are so many possibilities within what BDSM is. Remind us, Leah, what does it stand for?

Willow: It's bondage. What's the D?

Leah: So the BDSM definition B is for bondage, and D is for discipline or domination. S is for sadism or submission. And then the M is for Masochism.

Willow: Yeah. So, breaking all of that down is like... Just in the term itself, BDSM, there's like worlds within worlds right there. Yeah.

Leah: World within worlds. Totally. One of the things that helped me just with the erotic blueprints is the way that they defined kink. I mean, aside from, you know, whatever's taboo for you. There are two branches to the kink world.

Leah: One is you lean towards more sensation play, or the other one is you lean towards a more psychological play. And the psychological play was the thing that was sort of sparking me. I don't, I'm really kind of... squirmy when it comes to like too much sensation or scratching or anything that hurts. And I'm not really into things that vibrate or, you know, like the whole idea of knife play and blood play.

Leah: Although I can kind of conceptualize why that's a turn-on for somebody else. It just doesn't draw me in. But what is the psychological shit, you know?

Willow: Again, the brain is like the most powerful sexual organ in your body. Yeah. Yeah. I can get down with both, I think.

Leah: Yeah? Cool.

Willow: I think, I mean, I have just recently gotten into a little bit of more of the kink and which you would call bondage, you know, being tied up. What is it? What do they call it? The Japanese tying. Yeah. It's not like tied up to the bedpost per se...

Leah: Knots... Like it's really beautiful.

Willow: It's gorgeous.

Leah: They tie it in a special way and define the body in these different positions. It's so pretty, you should really look at the images.

Willow: Yeah. And it, and it feels really....

Leah: It looks scratchy..

Willow: Well, well, depends., Yeah, you don't use a scratchy rope.

Leah: I'm like, that looks like some scratchy ass rope. Can we get silk rope please?

Willow: Silk rope. That was the ticket for me. We used some nice soft silk rope.

Leah: Did you? Okay.

Willow: Oh yeah. It felt so sexy. It just felt so hot to be like... and then once it was on, it was like, then I was being handled by the rope, you know?

Willow: So there was this submission piece that happened for me where the other person was more in that dominating role. So that's a big part of BDSM that Om was sharing with us, is trying on those two roles. You know, when in his workshops, that's the first thing you do you try on?

Willow: Am I a dominatrix, or am I a submissive? What feels more resonant in my body? And what do I get more pleasure out of? And so I thought that was cool. And that was a surprise to me. I didn't know that. He's like, some people can go back and forth, but most people are one or the other.

Willow: I don't know. I can't wait to dive in more cause I feel like I might be able to rock both.

Willow: Yeah. I feel like I can probably rock both, but where I will get the most pleasure is probably being a submissive. Cause I think I can be such a control freak in other aspects of my world and life. I have a very highly developed masculine, which I love, that helps me be self-employed and you know, I can be self-directive and meet deadlines and all of that stuff.

Leah: But where my greatest edge is, is dropping in more too, like, giving myself over to something else. That's a big growth piece. Yeah. But I mean, I can get a lot of pleasure when there's enough trust. Fuck.

Willow: Yeah. And when they know what they're doing, and they know how to dominate you in a way that you really can submit and can just relax into that.

Willow: I've put some clients who are into this realm of sexuality and, you know, same thing for her. She is so driven, does everything, she's got the whole family. She's always in control, always doing, doing, doing so for her to drop into that submissive state just is, that's where the pleasure's at for her. It's really interesting.

Leah: You know, even in my work as a Dakini years ago, one of my favorite sessions was called worshiping the goddess sessions. Where I could teach people using my own body as a template of how to really pleasure and open the feminine. And I think one of the things that turned me so on about those sessions and a lot of people, women in my industry, don't choose to offer that kind of work.

Leah: I think because it scares them to be somewhat out of control. For me, it was like, are you kidding me? If someone is hanging on your every word, they want to get this thing, right? They're so present, they're paying so close attention to the response of your body. That, to me, is such a turn-on. So to have someone devote themselves to really listening to every cue in my body, to being responsive, to like the tremor and the opening and the closing and my body language and my breath and my sound and my, like, you know, that, that place that opens into emotion. You know, to like, to trust someone so thoroughly...

Leah: Like, I'll never forget one of these, like most epic dates with my husband, Matt, we were just getting to know each other. And we were playing with these Tantric roles like separating the role of giver and receiver.

Leah: And I was a receiver that night. And I just, like, I had let go so big in that session. Normally things that someone would try to do to me, that I would brace myself for and kind of flinch back, or be uncertain, or tighten up for, I didn't. I completely opened and softened. And then, when I had the biggest orgasmic release and then afterward, I had the biggest emotional release. And just sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. And he sobbed too. Like it was this magic moment. And we'll probably go into that a little deeper in the episode; if you wanna look for it, it's the episode on spiritual sex.

There's a place of spiritual connection that opens there. And I share that story because I think that that's really what Om was illustrating in this idea where BDSM and Tantra intersect. There's this place within that deeply surrendered state and in that deep holding the trust and being that like strong, dominant post. It's like being, it's like having the Shiva post.

Leah: You're really like honoring that state of holding the space, and holding the center, and holding what is happening. It's like this really kind of deep like my whole body just wants to, like, get grounded and centered and deepened. There's something about that magical world that does open us to spirit into having these profound experiences through our sexual connection.

Willow: Yeah. It's so powerful. And one of the things that he highlighted was, if you're working with a Dominatrix or someone who's in that dominant role, in that position, the point is for you to discover yourself inside of that submissive role. The dominator dominatrix or whatever, does not care about your blocks around, you know, the way your body looks, or you know, your insecurities about your sexuality, or like that's not at the forefront for them. What really is, is...

Leah: ...that was an interesting point he made, wasn't it? Yeah.

Willow: They're just there to hold a container for you to discover.

Leah: Yeah. But your story is, like, so not a value or interest to them.

Willow: Yeah. They don't care, which is great. So brilliant. Especially if you know that going in. And I, you know, I'm curious if Dominatrixes, like professional ones out in the world, if they set that up? Probably not. I would imagine.

Willow: But, I mean, a different story with you and your husband. Obviously, he did care, you know, but...

Leah: ...yeah, but he didn't know what he was doing enough even to know what was happening. He was just following it, you know?

Willow: Right. Yeah. So that is sort of like the unknowing.

Leah: Yeah, it's being in the moment. It's the thing that you always talk about.

Leah: It's like that depth of presence. It's like really being there. And I think, like, when he was talking about the dominatrix, like, they don't give a fuck about like your story. And actually, I really resonated with that as a Dakini. You know, that's just your fucking story, man. You know, your story doesn't actually matter. All that does is keep you trapped, and I'm not actually interested in what's keeping you trapped. I'm interested in what's gonna move you forward.

Willow: Yeah. What's gonna open you up?

Leah: Come on, get in there. Do the work. Confront the bullshit and let's, and let's keep going. You know you don't have to impress me. my heart's already invested in who you really are.

Willow: That's right.

Leah: It's not in all the other stuff.

Willow: Yeah. That's right. As professional Dakini's or Dominatrixes, you know, whatever we're looking into, where's the lock and key? Where can we open this store? Where can we move you to the other side of the story that's held you back for so long?

Leah: It's like your victimness is, it's time to move on.

Willow: Boring, move on.

Leah: Yeah. It's like, stop holding yourself back. Blah, blah, blah.

Willow: We all have a story. Yeah. We've all been victims. Right, right.

Leah: Right, right. Yeah. It's time to take real responsibility, which leads me to probably be one of the most impactful parts of the interview for me.

Leah: And that was when we talked about what if your answer is, I don't know. And that's what hit a huge chord with me. I really loved his answer. It is the most irresponsible answer you can give someone. You know, it's like such a fucking setup. I don't know. And the reason why it would hit home for me is because that was my pet answer for years.

Leah: I really didn't fucking know.

Leah: It was like, "Hey babe, what's your fantasy, you know?"

Leah: And I was like, okay. So they wanna know how to win with me. I finally figured that one out, took eight years. But in the meantime, I'm just like, "look, dude, just try something. I'll tell you if I like it."

Leah: You know, it was so annoying to me because it confronted the fact that I didn't know.

Willow: Right.

Leah: I didn't have a good answer for them, and they put me on the defensive. But it is a setup because then that person has to guess. And then I get to nail them to the cross when they get it wrong. You know, and I had no idea what manipulation that was. And oh, by the way, for those of you who are around people who tend to be manipulative, here's something you need to do.

Leah: Most people don't know they're being manipulative.

Willow: Mm. Yeah, they're doing it subconsciously.

Leah: That's why we always deny it. When someone accuses you of being manipulative, you're like, what the fuck? I'm not manipulative. It's cause it's a subconscious thing. People don't know that they're being manipulative. Really.

Leah: People always think that manipulative people know exactly what they're doing, but half the time, they don't.

Willow: They don't.

Leah: They're the last ones to find out they've been manipulative. So just consider that a little bit, you know.

Willow: Be gentle.

Leah: So I had to, like, I had to feel into what he said, and I had a shame attack a little bit. Like, fuck.

Willow: What did he say? What was his answer?

When I asked him about it later, I believe in the interview, he said, you know, a better answer is, "I don't know, but I'm willing to find out."

Willow: Ah, yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Leah: "I don't know, I need more information."

Leah: "I don't know, will you help me?"

Leah: You know, it's like, "I don't know, where do you think I should begin?"

Leah: "I don't know. Can you ask that in a different way?" You know that is taking responsibility.

Willow: Bringing in more curiosity.

Leah: Yeah. I wish I would've been given that tool. I could've grown so much quicker. I could've been responsible for myself, for my feelings, and for my desires had I known better.

Leah: So that has had me really deep in reflection since that came up.

Willow: Mm. I love that, it's so sweet.

Leah: Yeah. It was really sweet. And I feel real, I feel tender towards that younger part of myself I didn't know. Yeah. I hold her with so much love in that inexperience of not having anyone to ask those things too, to get support from, you know?

Willow: Exactly.

Leah: It really brings up a lot of tenderness.

Leah: And I think that's actually what this whole BDSM Tantra thing is really all about. It's actually getting really tender. It's getting really real, it's getting vulnerable. And it's through this lens I'm finding a big hell yes. Even that piece around humiliation, I was starting to go there earlier, I didn't get why people would wanna be fucking humiliated. I'm cursing a lot in this post-show. I hope you guys are enjoying it.

Willow: Sometimes the BDSM just pulls it out of you!

Leah: Sometimes I just have to throw it around! So. Yeah. This thing about humiliation. I didn't get it. Like, why would anyone wanna be told their Dick is small and their all this like mean stuff? It just sounded mean. And it went against my kind of "Pollyanna" be nice.

Willow: Yeah, totally. You're an inner nice girl.

Leah: Yeah, my nice girl. But then, when he started talking about like the slut shaming, I was getting turned on. Like yeah, fucking tell me I'm a little fucking slut, and tell me what to do, and bend over and lift up your skirt, and do this, and do that, you nasty little girl.

Leah: You know, I don't know why, but I started to be like, I am open to this; when's Matt getting home? It's time for somebody to boss me. Okay. Let's bring on the slut shaming.

Willow: Dirty little girl.

Leah: Dirty little slut.

Leah: And I realize, I mean, I've had a couple of days to think about this. I was so afraid of being corralled into the slut space coming of age and high school. I think it because I knew how deep my sexual wanting, and needing, & desire was, like there was such a huge part of me that was so horny and so wanted it. And I was so afraid of sex because I knew the minute I really had it, I was afraid I'd be outta control, that I was gonna want it all the time.

Leah: And so I had maneuvered myself in all of these positions to try to strategize, not falling into that place. Like, to the point where I would be in I'd be making out and being a sexual situation, and then my clit would, as soon as I'm starting to peek towards an orgasm, I would get a click, click, click, click feeling pulse and my clitoris.

Leah: That was like my fight, flight response. And it was, "get the fuck out of here right now." And so I would somehow get out of that sexual situation immediately, and I would bolt. Or I'd play the game, just the tip, just the tip, you know... sorry. I cannot have my virginity taken until I don't have to worry my mother that I'm gonna have a teenage pregnancy.

Leah: Like that was the big goal. My mom had four daughters. She would only be a success if she got all four of us out of high school without getting pregnant. And I took that to heart. Like I was like, I can't disappoint my mom. Plus, I had an older brother who was given the job, you have to protect your sisters at all costs.

Leah: Right. So he would either beat up every boyfriend or beat me up. Okay. And that was really stressful. And then I had some of my best friends who were slutty girls. And everyone was so, I mean, they were so good at blow jobs, and I just couldn't understand why the boys weren't showing up to school with roses for her and chocolates and taking her out to the movies. Like why weren't they worshiping the ground she walked on?

Willow: Yes. That is a big thing that we need to really start to teach young men. If there's good in inner intimacy and interaction and sexual intercourse between you and your teenage girlfriend, you know, you should really be Reveering her.

Leah: Yeah. Oh, your teenage hookup. The fucking slut in school should be the queen of the homecoming ball. Like she should be, someone should be picking her up in a goddamn limo and taking her to school. Like she should be lavished. She should be the most popular girl in school.

Leah: I love it. She should just be adored. And instead, she is publicly humiliated. Yeah. And it kills me. Yeah. And I just, I couldn't bear, my nervous system could not bear having those rumors because I was around all my brothers and all those friends. I heard what they said.

Willow: Yeah. And it's very interesting. That brings up such a good point.

Willow: It's like, how many of us even subconsciously, like now that you're sharing all these details of your teen years, I'm like, boy, I didn't even have consciousness about any of that. You know? How many of us just unconsciously walked through the world? Like, I'm not gonna be that, you know, because I don't wanna be shamed or pointed a finger at. I don't want to have the Scarlet letter on me, you know?

Willow: Right. The Scarlet letter. God, what an influence that stupid book has been.

Willow: Yes, exactly.

Leah: Jesus Christ.

Willow: And that's history, you know, that's what we're coming off of. And so, you know, to Revere the school, the high school slut to bring her in the limo. Really give her the crown of sexual sovereignty.

Willow: I mean, that would be completely different ...

Leah: Culture change, you know? Yeah. Like shifts. Oh my God. So when I had to, I took inventory of that. It was like, I grocked how much I repressed and rejected my inner slut, my inner freedom, sexual goddess, my slutty inner goddess. You know, I understand why.

Leah: And now I'm at a place where that is so healed that I totally want my inner slut to be played with. I wanna kink that shit out.

Willow: Do it girl.

Leah: I'm going too, I've been talking to Matt about it. I'm just like, I just want like all the dirty stuff told to me, I wanna just be used. Use me, use me, use me. I wanna play out what I wanted to actually play out and didn't let myself.

Willow: In your early sexual years.

Leah: So much Fear. So afraid. Wow. It was debilitating. Like when I really grock how deep that was for me, and why Tantra sort of healed and resurrected a part of my... I got to claim that, but I had to claim it first in this goddessy way.

Leah: Right. I had to put on this archetype to make it okay. And now I'm ready to take off the archetype and put on the nasty archetype and from a place of power. Not from a place of anything else. Like it really feels clean and healthy.

Willow: Yeah. So authentic. You're really ready for it.

Leah: Thanks, Om, you brought all this up for me. And so then it had me thinking, okay, well, if that makes sense to me, then yeah, it does make sense that for a lot of men, their greatest fear is someone being able to satisfy their partner more than they can. Yeah. Or their partner leaving someone for a bigger Dick or, you know, this fear around this small Dick thing. Because I've worked with so many men who are so obsessed and afraid of that.

Leah: And I just, I've always had so much compassion, like, but you don't realize you can be as big as you want, you know? Right. But to, to now make the bridge and go, oh, okay. There's actually a lot of healing and just owning it.

Willow: Yeah. And to just go there. Okay. Yeah, you do have a small Dick. It is tiny. It is teeny. Let's talk about it. Let's get into it, it's never gonna satisfy anybody.

Willow: Cruelty. Just go to the fuckin shadows around it.

Leah: Yeah. And then to have them get off on it. Freedom.

Willow: Yeah. Total. It's amazing. It's amazing. I don't know if you've listened to the book by Kasia Urbaniak it's well, I can't remember the name (Unbound), but she tells the story.

Willow: She's a dominatrix, and she tells the story about the most boring session of her life. And he had a tiny Dick, and it was the tiniest one she'd ever seen. Right. And he wasn't saying anything upfront, like, I wanna work this out. He just instead had this huge ego wall up around, around this. And he was super insecure about his tiny Dick. So at some point during the session, when it wasn't going well, she just, all of a sudden, outta nowhere, she just started poking fun at his teeny tiny little prick, and how it was, you know, this and that and all of his worst fears. And it ended up being one of the best sessions she has ever done.

Willow: So it was really cool to hear that story.

Leah: Isn't that just remarkable? I feel like he's opening doors that I have been too afraid to, to see what was on the other side. And now I realize what a path to real healing. Like it can transcend something. I've been too limited to see, too afraid to understand because I couldn't find the place in my mind where it made sense.

Leah: And he is so interesting... because he is so straight to the point. And he's got this really, like, a certain masculine essence, yes, that he holds. Yeah. Where I can see how people would get triggered by it. I personally wanna lean into it. I find it refreshing to be around an unapologetic man who just says what he wants.

Leah: And I hope you've taken advantage of that. You're about to take advantage of his free gift. I've been actually poking around in it myself. He's got a mighty network community. Great. And you get a login to check out some of his content, and there's this one series that's called. How do I get her to miss me?

Willow: Ooh, I love that. Yeah.

Leah: And he does three parts on it. And he opens it up, it's fucking hilarious; it's so typical of him. He goes," it's the most idiotic question anyone has ever asked me ever. I mean, are you fucking serious? This is the stupidest question. But because it keeps coming back, I suppose I should suspend the idiocy of this idea and just talk about it. So I've come up with three points..." you know, it's just like...

Willow: ...that is so Om...

Leah: ...so classic of him.... And I just go, God, I think I really love him.

Willow: Yeah. He's just so straight to the point. He's so straight talk, you know, God bless that. I know. We don't need to sugarcoat every fucking thing.

Leah: Yeah, no, we don't. Sometimes it's just like getting to the heart of it and you don't have to like, 'em.

Leah: I just hope you respect him.

Willow: Yeah, it brought up a lot for Leah and I. We'd love to hear from you, if it brought up anything for you? This is a great place and a great opportunity to converse, and to explore, and to, you know, share vulnerability. Like what did it bring up for you?

Willow: It brought up a lot for Leah; she just shared with us.

Leah: I think it's gonna marinate me for a while. This is not gonna be the last time you hear from me about the BDSM realm. Yeah. There's some doors unlocking.

Willow: Yeah, for me, it just brought up a lot of excitement. I've already been kind of like, I think that's what's next for me.

Leah: Okay. Well, let's go to the, let's go to his  seminar in New York.

Willow: Okay. Let's do it.

Leah: Or actually, for the teacher training, you should come up here, and we should maybe get a private session with him.

Willow: Ooh, that'd be fun. Except I think I'll be in Europe.

Leah: Oh, you might be in Europe. Yeah. Let's definitely, you probably will see Leah.

Leah: Om, you're gonna see Leah and I in your training soon, for sure. And for those of you listening to the episode, chime in, and let us know what it brought up for you over on Instagram @sexreimagined. We would love to hear from you there.

Leah: Yeah. Love Love, Love, Love.

Show Music: Thanks for tuning in. If the hosts seem to know what they were talking about.

Show Music: That's because they do Leah Piper is a Tantric sex master coach and a positive psychology facilitator. Dr. Willow Brown is both a Chinese and functional medicine doctor and a Taoist sexology teacher. Don't forget your comments, likes, subscribes, and suggestions matter. Let's realize this new world together.